The abortion debate

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The 'heartless' and 'selfish' factor come from the fact that if a woman is raped and gets pregnant, you are implying the whole 'too bad so sad... deal with it'. It really isn't fair, she should not have to endure such a life changing event because the mad man did not give her any choices.



A rapist is not going to take any responsibility, they are just going to dash. The woman is on her own. A couple who are dating and get pregnant have way more options then a rape victim would.

You mentioned that mother and fetus do not trump each other, (In Canada mothers always trump fetuses) if there is a situation where a fetus is going to kill the mother if the pregnancy continues (regardless of the fetus stage) what would you suggest should be done? (I already know what a doctor would do)

Knowing that you don't want women to have personal decisions about their body... I want your honest answer on this.... if a line of rape-victims showed up to your home with unwanted babies that they had to carry because 'you' wanted them to, will you take all of those kids in?

I agree wholeheartedly, it is the mother's choice, and although I don't condone later abortions, such as in the 20+ Weeks period, when they could technically be born and survive, I do not think it destroys life, I am complete anti-death as a whole, but a few cells is little more than a chemical structure, it has no mind, no independant thought (which many fundies also seem to lack) and above all, has not a grain of salt in importance to the mother, yet some feel that way. I don't know if anyone had heard about the case with the 9 year old brazilian girl who was raped by her step-father, she had an abortion with her mother's support and the funny thing was the catholic church excommunicated them all, what loving nice people to treat and unborn child more important than a 9 YEAR OLD GIRL's well being, just goes to show religion isn't always the best option I guess. And whats more, into the other debates relating to abortion, such as death penalty, if some life is sacred, all life should be sacred, including animals, strange that many christians are anti-abortion, yet when a man is set into a 1500V 12A chair, very few seem to realise that he was an unborn child once, and you must also remember that everyone is a victim of their own circumstances, after all, what if he was mentally ill, or seriously damage due to a horrible upbringing? what if he was an unwanted child? then wouldn't abortion be a better alternative than to bring an unwanted child into the world?

Aside from abstention, which is an 100% effective form of birth control, there are laws in the USA concerning child support. It is usually provided for by the father of the child, rather than pro-life organizations who are not responsible for impregnating the postpubescent girl/woman.

Also according to the doctors the 9-year old girl would have died if she continued with the pregnancy because her uterus was too small to carry a single baby, but she was pregnant with twins. The fact that the church would rather the innocent girl die then abort unfeeling fetuses just makes me cringe.

The Catholic Church with its recent condemnation of condoms is still busily establishing alliances with HIV. There may be better religions but none I have heard about makes any sense to me.

Really? Thats f*****g sick, honestly these religions screw peoples lives up so much, it makes me deeply happy to be atheist!
Damn, when will the religious people realise that people are far more important than stupid ancient ideals

No. Stop reading things into my words that I didn't and wouldn't say.


It isn't fair to kill someone innocent for the crimes of another, is it?


There are 2 possible scenarios:

If both will die (as in an ectopic pregnancy), then the answer is obviously termination of the pregnancy. Tragic, but unavoidable.

If one or the other will die, then the choice has to rest with the mother. If she's unable to make a choice (in a coma or something), then that choice would go to whoever it normally would go to in life or death situations like that (parents, husband, next of kin, or whatever).



You just aren't going to stop throwing unfounded insults my way, are you?


That's really an unfair question isn't it?

While we're on the subject of unfair questions, what would you do if a line of homeless people formed at your door and asked you if you would take all of them in?

No it's not. It is totally fair. How can you expect a woman to have a baby that she doesn't want when you are not prepared to take one in. Dropping a baby in your lap and saying 'it's all yours, deal with it' is the same as you telling a rape victim to have a baby that she doesn't want nor is prepared to have.

So I am going to ask the question again...
If a line of rape-victims showed up to your home with unwanted babies that they had to carry because 'you' wanted them to, will you take all of those kids in?



I will first mention that homeless people are under the catagory of 'living-breathing people'.
I can't find any common ground between Homeless people and raped women.... but anyway....

I'd first find out how they where referenced to my house specifically because I didn't have anything to do with the people's homelessness, nor with the decisions or circumstances leading up to it. Providing that they are not dangerous people, I'd refer them to a shelter or the Salvation Army that is in my town.



I do not mean to be insulting, but how do expect me to react when a man wants my rights about my body to be revoked?
I am acting in self defence here...

The fact that you are saying that a 3 month old fetus is a person and cannot be trumped is a belief and a opinion... no matter how much you make arguments to defend it, they are STILL beliefs and opinions, not the facts that the people of science know and have proven.

You seemed shocked when I said that you have no acknowledgment of the physiological damage that rape and unwanted pregnancy has. How can you blame me for saying that when your arguments are only for the care of the fetus, and not for the women who have been scarred, as long as they have unwanted babies.... you seem cool with it.

Even pro-life countries like Brazil have exceptions, they allow abortions for rape and incest.... which are most common reasons to have a abortion anyway.

I am not going to do something against my will to keep you happy.

Last edited by Chibi_Neko on 04 Apr 2009, 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Some "stupid ancient ideals" for you:
"Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited."
"If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."
"The commandments, 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fullfillment of the law."
"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."
"Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others."
"... clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience."
"Above all, love each other deeply, beause love covers over a multitude of sins."

That Catholic Archbishop (the one doing the excommunications) wasn't wrong because of his ideals, but because of his failure to follow them.

Secular Humanism > Religious Humanism

Secular Humanism

If your religious convinction is the only thing keeping you from breaking all those things you listed, we're in grave danger indeed.

Oh, and I hope I don't have to dig up all the naughty bits in the bible?

Don't worry, you won't have to. Someone else has: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com

Thank you Henrik, I was about to bring that up

To Ancalagon
Yes indeed, religion brings such messages of love and peace, but I prefer to develop them from myself, not any notion of foolish and ancient rubbish, I see every being on this earth, not just humans, as my equal, unlike your religion I do not think that animals are here for my use, but I am here as they, for the ecological cycle, it could not work any other way, so keep your foolish statements to your self, I will live for me descendants and my ancestors, they will live on through my genes, and I will live on through my children's, and as such, I shall bring any children up with knowledge, and loving every living being from their heart and because it is kind, not because they should fear retribution of some imaginary being if they choose otherwise

Then why do you eat plants? There are there even as you are part of the ecological cycle.

When I see a steer, I think of a well prepared steak.
When I see a hen, I think of roast chicken.
When I see a lamb I think of lamb shanks.
When I see a salmon swimming about I think of lox and bagels.

ruveyn

You seem to have misunderstood my meaning, just because there is an ecological cycle does not mean you cannot touch it, if there were no creatures to eat others for example then survival of the fittest would not be an applicable principle now would it? I eat meat still, even though biologically I am not designed for it, though I do not take pride in that animals must die for me to live, but honestly, I can't seem to give it up as of yet, I am merely 15, I have years to do such a thing

So basically to clarify, humans were designed to eat plants, if I didn't I guess I wouldn't be very human now would I?

Not really. All I'd be asking is that she not kill it. She doesn't have to love it. She doesn't have to keep it. She doesn't have to raise it.


My answer to your silly question is similar to your answer to my silly question. I don't have the resources to raise 57 kids. There are probably even specific laws about what happens when you get a bunch of kids dropped on your doorstep. But leaving that aside, there are adoption agencies, pro-life organizations, and churches that I could go to for help. And family.


As are your beliefs and opinions.


I've been arguing against the termination of unwanted fetuses, since others have been arguing for it. No one has yet argued for the termination of unwanted mothers (fortunately).

As a general rule, I avoid outward displays of emotion. Just because I don't wear my heart on my sleeve doesn't mean I don't have one.


Having looked it up when the thing about the 9 year old kid came up, I believe they allow it for danger to the life of the mother and in cases of rape, up to the 20 week mark. (Not for incest per se, but then incestuous rape is still rape.)


I doubt that.

May I ask Ancalagon, If you happened to be a child indoctrination? Because so far your thoughts seem to greatly echo that of the disgustingly sexist catholic church, which I'm assuming you are part of? I am extremely glad people such as yourself do not have the power to choose laws, as if they did, the world would be in a far worse state than it already is, women have the right to choose as a mother, just as you have the right to choose if you are circumsised or had surgery on, its the same because either way it is still a bundle of cells, its just the cells you happen to be talking about seem to be more important than the individual as a whole? May I ask, if men were to give birth, would you still have the same world view? Or is it merely because of your innately sexist beliefs?