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Zyborg
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21 Mar 2009, 12:59 pm

Silvervarg wrote:
Yepp, as the atheist I am, I'm of course argueing alot with religious people, and now it was the great flood that was the subject. So just for fun I made a quick calculation of how large the Ark hade to be in order to be able to keep all 30 000 000 animals when the world was flooded.

Note! These are not exact values in (allmost) anyway.

Quoted from my letter wrote:
If he picked up two of every animal and had merely to store them the requirments are 2 dm3/pair of animals (cubic decimeter), the Ark itself had to be atlest 60 000 m3.
This means that it had to be atlest 100 m long, 60 m wide and 10 m hight, just to barely fit all the animals. Things not included in the calculation: Movement area, storage area for food and water, walking corridors, the size of the wooden structures inside the Ark or ballast (to make the ship steady). To avoid the animals dying of stress the first day you'd have to add another (generaly) 3 dm3 (atleast) to everyone of the 30 000 000 compartments. Then you'll have a volume of 150 000 m3. If each wall in the compartment is 2 cm thick you'll have an extra 60 m3 that's merley floor and walls.
You'll need atlest one corridor 4*4 m wide to fit the largest animals at the bottom of the ship (you'll want the heaviest animals the lowest) running through the bottom of the ship, and one corridor 2*2 every 10 meter on every level of the ship. Every level should be about (generaly) 3 meters high. This gives another 5 280 m3 in volume.
The storage areas should be about half the siza of the (small) animal compartments, so around 30 000 m3.
This becomes a total volume of 185 340 m3. This gives a size of about 132 m long, 70 wide and 20 m hight.
Last but not least you'll need the ballast about 1,5 m of stone and rocks at the bottom of the ship another 13 860 m3 of volume.
Ark total volume: 199 200 m3.
Length: 132,5 m.
Wide: 70 m.
Hight: 21,5 m.
In comparison to the Titanic:
Volume: ~232 960 m3. (Note that this is much to high since Titanic wasn't evenly shaped.)
Length: 260 m.
Wide: 28 m.
Hight: 32 m. (Without cimneys)


My conclusion is that Noah was the greatest mathematics and shipsbuilder in history of mankind! :lol:
The model I used for the imagenary shape of the Ark was the tradingships used in that period of time. (Not very slim or manuvereble.)

Feel free to criticize or ask questions about my calculations. :D


If bible is true it means we are created by sadistic maniac who wants to inflict suffering and torment upon us.



Sand
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21 Mar 2009, 1:52 pm

Quote:
If bible is true it means we are created by sadistic maniac who wants to inflict suffering and torment upon us.


Why does this seem an impossibility?



Zyborg
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21 Mar 2009, 1:59 pm

Sand wrote:
Quote:
If bible is true it means we are created by sadistic maniac who wants to inflict suffering and torment upon us.


Why does this seem an impossibility?


Did I claim that?



NEWater
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21 Mar 2009, 7:23 pm

Lifted from Nietzsche's The Gay Science:

Excelsior!— "You will never pray again, never adore again, never again rest in endless trust—you do not permit yourself to stop before any ultimate wisdom, ultimate goodness, ultimate power, while unharnessing your thoughts—you have no perpetual guardian and friend for your seven solitudes—you live without a view of mountains with snow on their peaks and fire in their hearts—there is no avenger for you any more nor any final improver—there is no longer any reason in what happens, no love in what will happen to you—no resting place is open any longer to your heart, where it only needs to find and no longer to seek, you resist any ultimate peace, you will the eternal recurrence of war and peace:—man of renunciation, all this you wish to renounce? Who will give you the strength for that? Nobody yet has had this strength!" There is a lake that one day ceased to permit itself to flow off, and it formed a dam where it had hitherto flown off: ever since this lake is rising higher and higher. Perhaps this very renunciation will also lend us the strength needed to bear this renunciation; perhaps man will rise ever higher as soon as he ceases to flow out into a god.



ruveyn
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21 Mar 2009, 7:42 pm

b9 wrote:
bibles are true. i have seen them and felt them with my own hands. they had the words "the bible" printed on their front cover. they were definitely bibles.
if bibles were fired at me from a cannon, i would be seriously injured no doubt. they have substance and moment and therefore reality.
bibles are as real as any other book of similar thickness when it comes to clout.


Do you distinguish between a box and its contents. Or the print of a book and its meaning? Do you?

ruveyn



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21 Mar 2009, 8:01 pm

b9 wrote:
bibles are true. i have seen them and felt them with my own hands. they had the words "the bible" printed on their front cover. they were definitely bibles.
if bibles were fired at me from a cannon, i would be seriously injured no doubt. they have substance and moment and therefore reality.
bibles are as real as any other book of similar thickness when it comes to clout.

You are absolutely right.


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b9
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21 Mar 2009, 8:18 pm

ruveyn wrote:
b9 wrote:
bibles are true. i have seen them and felt them with my own hands. they had the words "the bible" printed on their front cover. they were definitely bibles.
if bibles were fired at me from a cannon, i would be seriously injured no doubt. they have substance and moment and therefore reality.
bibles are as real as any other book of similar thickness when it comes to clout.

Do you distinguish between a box and its contents. Or the print of a book and its meaning? Do you?
ruveyn

the box is real.
the contents are real
the print is real.
the book is real.
the "meaning" is not.

i will seek shelter from a cannon that fires boxes or contents or prints or books.
i need not flinch from a cannon that fires "meaning" .

a bible held up to the sun will blocks it's light from your eyes.
all bibles cast shadows, so all bibles are real.



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21 Mar 2009, 8:24 pm

greenblue wrote:
b9 wrote:
bibles are .....

You are absolutely right.


thanks for that.
i am not being serious really. i am just arguing as an exaggeratedly "concrete" minded person.

i am not interested in theosophical discussion.
i know i should avoid posting in threads where i have nothing serious to contribute,. but if i posted those posts in any other thread, they would be out of context.



claire-333
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21 Mar 2009, 9:08 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
greenblue wrote:
Where is slowmutant when we need him?


Good question, his last post was 22 Feb and Last visit 24 Feb. :?
I know. He really should come back. :(



Dentu
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21 Mar 2009, 11:16 pm

I was born and raised Roman Catholic. All the same, I've had quite a few private discussions with priests, a lot of studying on biology and the theory of evolution, and a good bit of soul searching. After all that, I've chosen to believe there's a God. But mine isn't exactly the same as what's in the Bible.

From a purely objective point of view- the Bible is and always has been produced by human hands. It has even been deliberately and plainly altered in recent times that we know of, meaning that such alterations were likely there from the beginning. Several hard lines directly contradict other lines. Some entire sections are obviously written with an extremely different voice than the original author. If I knew nothing else, it would be a discredit to myself and the God I tenaciously believe in to believe everything I read just because someone else told me it was all hard fact. Especially when there's been several religions throughout time that have all tried the same shtick about as well.

Cherry picking morals certainly isn't the answer either, as that will ultimately lead to forming pretexts and false beliefs based on subconscious desires. Every bead of wisdom needs to be studied and evaluated for purity, and I must remember to check on them later to make sure I didn't miss so much as a speck of dust. To do any less would make me a hypocrite and a monster of my own design. And this is the most important lesson I've learned while reading the Bible.

Regardless of what I see or hear, I must actively pursue my own identity. One man tells you to stone a whore, the next tells you to turn the other cheek, another tells you to pluck out your own eye, one more tells you to take her's, and the last tells you to help the poor woman. Right and wrong aren't black and white. They aren't even gray. Everything is justified in some way or another. Better to lay out your feelings and impulses and judge them accordingly than to act by rigid doctrine alone, twisting your ankle and falling at the first knock of reality.



Dussel
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21 Mar 2009, 11:59 pm

Dentu wrote:
From a purely objective point of view- the Bible is and always has been produced by human hands. It has even been deliberately and plainly altered in recent times that we know of, meaning that such alterations were likely there from the beginning.


But a simple question: If is there is a god, why this god did not choose a way of deliberating his message in a way which can't be altered and manipulated?



Silvervarg
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22 Mar 2009, 4:21 am

I just thought of an other thing from the "good book", if Sodom and Gomorra was destroyed by god becouse of their sinfull living, what the hell where they doing in there?! I mean, look at the world, what sins are not present in todays society? And we're still around aren't we? Or has God just given up on us? :D

Drussel wrote:
But a simple question: If is there is a god, why this god did not choose a way of deliberating his message in a way which can't be altered and manipulated?

Becouse then He, in his infinate love, could not send anyone to hell. :twisted:


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Dentu
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22 Mar 2009, 4:36 am

The thought had crossed my mind. He couldn't have been too serious about following him and only him. Otherwise there likely wouldn't be any other religions, or people would at least know of the truth before they could be corrupted. Hell, why even make us learn it? He'd be fully capable of just giving us the knowledge at birth and saving everyone the trouble, right?

But we don't know anything special at birth. We can very easily go our entire lives without even hearing the word Bible. It would be unfair to just assume these people are hated and get sent to hell for a misgiving they were never aware of. Equally so for anyone that's ever had a good reason to doubt God, the Bible, or anything else. It's not like most of these people actively oppose God, they just don't believe. And it's sort of arrogant to believe a handful of mortal meat sacks are high enough to an immortal deity to actually anger him.

So where do we come in, anyway? I have my theories. It stems from the simple belief that you can't get everything from nothing. If God, the literal sentience of the multiverse, were to create anything, he'd have to do it by giving up a piece of himself. There can't be any other way. Which makes each of us, every creature, and even the nonliving mass around us a singular, infinitesimally small portion of God. This entire universe follows arbitrary rules- physics, chemistry, mathematical patterns, atoms, nuclear fusion- and most important, the conservation of energy.

But while the universe does, humans alone (to our current knowledge) are given high levels of reasoning skills and a vivid imagination. The arts have always been important to us. People regularly confuse fiction with reality, even in the form of religion. So, why?

My theory is that it's because we're still connected to God, and we're serving our purpose simply by our continued existence. We're like his right brain. The fact that we each live and think differently contributes to the whole and enriches us all. Would God cease to be just because any or all of us stopped believing in him? No. And there'd be no real reason to stop any of the horrible things that happen down here. We mostly bring it on ourselves, it teaches us a lesson, and it's not like he can't have a long chat with the dead about it anyway. Death isn't the end for him, or us. We just think that way, and that's why we fail to realize why he doesn't bother correcting us.

Just my theory, of course.



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22 Mar 2009, 6:42 am

Dentu wrote:
The thought had crossed my mind. He couldn't have been too serious about following him and only him. Otherwise there likely wouldn't be any other religions, or people would at least know of the truth before they could be corrupted. Hell, why even make us learn it? He'd be fully capable of just giving us the knowledge at birth and saving everyone the trouble, right?

But we don't know anything special at birth.


We are born with some knowledge regarding time, space or social interactions. What an Aspie makes an Aspie is the fact that this birth-given knowlegde is slightly different than of the majority of people.

Dentu wrote:
But while the universe does, humans alone (to our current knowledge) are given high levels of reasoning skills and a vivid imagination. The arts have always been important to us. People regularly confuse fiction with reality, even in the form of religion. So, why?


Because we have different parts and functions in our brain: We can reason, but we can also seek happiness self-deception. Thinking that something greater than us is taking care gives comfort and our brains like positve feeling.

Further: The human history is some 100'000s years old. The earliest real reasoning we have is just 2500 years, the period since we gained more conclusive knowledge regarding the universe is much shorter. Perhaps mankind is still very young and religion is a childhood madness, which will disappear during a maturing process.

Dentu wrote:
Just my theory, of course.


A theory must be based on evidence, your "theory" falls here short.



Silvervarg
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22 Mar 2009, 8:36 am

Quote:
Dentu wrote:
Just my theory, of course.


A theory must be based on evidence, your "theory" falls here short.

No a scientific theory needs evidence. The everyday theory is what you in science call a thesis.


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Dussel
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22 Mar 2009, 9:10 am

Silvervarg wrote:
dussel wrote:
A theory must be based on evidence, your "theory" falls here short.

No a scientific theory needs evidence. The everyday theory is what you in science call a thesis.


Even a thesis need any kind of hard fact, not conclusive fact, but in any kind of facts. For the idea of a god there not a shred of hard facts.