Nobody interested in the Russia-Ukraine conflict?

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magz
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29 May 2022, 6:24 am

Japan in WWII is a weird topic here.
The Japanese did not fight in Europe, they invaded numerous East Asian states and they were USA's enemy. But they were part of the Axis, together with Germany and Italy.
Polish-Japanese relations were very good, with the Japanese government helping Polish children to return from Siberia in 1920s.
After WWII started, Poland declared war on Japan, which Japan rejected. It never went beyond mere declarations, though. However, a peace treaty between Poland and Japan was signed only in 1957.
We were at paper war for 16 years.

Changing the narrative to cross out Japan from the group of "fascists and nazis defeated in Ukraine" is both obviously political and technically true. The Japanese weren't defeated in Ukraine because they never fought in Europe.

Agressive narration used by Americans against the Chinese/Vietnamese is stupid overzealousness. The official statement from Ukrainian state:
https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polyti ... ussia.html
They're fine with China unengaged.

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kraftiekortie
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29 May 2022, 6:57 am

Japan was the Asian aggressor, and did Nazi-like things in China.

Japan didn’t care about most European countries, so they didn’t bother them. Europe had its own immediate concerns. Most Europeans probably did not know about situations like Nanking or Manchuria. They had their own immediate concerns. They thought of Japan as some exotic locale which didn’t concern them.

Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. Of course we had to respond to that. Japan saw the US as being a threat to their hegemony in the Pacific region.

SkinnedWolf
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29 May 2022, 7:01 am

The danger for Japan is that they started aggression before WWII. And they never followed the same path as Germany after their defeat in WWII.

There is still a lot of active right and far right there. Their textbooks still do not recognize their crimes throughout East Asia.
Even war criminals during WWII still have temples for them to publicly commemorate.

The Ukrainian government wrongly responded to the screams of the far-right in Japan.

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magz
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29 May 2022, 7:31 am

From European perspective, the modern Japanese "far right" is very unobvious. Are they agressive or calling for agression? Because that's what makes the right "far" in my understanding.

Not recognizing one's own historical atrocities is universal, Germany are a rare exception here - so I wouldn't use this in evaluating modern Japan. Very small number of states in the whole world are not guilty of it.
Some even don't recognize their current atrocities... psychological defense mechanisms are very universal. No one readily sees themself as "the bad guy".

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SkinnedWolf
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29 May 2022, 7:52 am

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%A1%97%E5%AE%A3%E5%8F%B3%E7%BF%BC
https://www.japanpi.com/ja/blog/background/right-wing/
https://car-moby.jp/article/automobile/street-car/
Japanese source. They overlap with gangsters.

Quote:

The right has no background to be taken care of as a political organization

There are two reasons. One is that before the end of the Cold War, many media and cultural figures were sympathetic to the left, and I was fortunate to have the opportunity to detail each group in the media, including their claims.

Another reason is that there are some groups of politicians (gangsters) in the right-wing groups, especially the so-called "sound trucks" operated by sound trucks, and in these groups, right-wing movements are carried out at the same time. Mention of one group using sound trucks to carry out a ruthless denunciation campaign against companies and politicians and get financial support in exchange for cancellation.

In fact, the town's right-wing has expanded since the intensified crackdown on gangs in the 1960s, with many gangs swapping their signboards for political associations to evade police repression. Currently, signboard replacement is not allowed due to tightened violence laws.

That said, right-wing groups receive little attention because they are seen as quasi-gangsters or violent groups.
...
Also, not all right-wing groups are right-wing towns, some focus on the internet, some focus on studies and lectures, some don't have stereo trucks...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku_dantai
English source

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magz
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29 May 2022, 8:04 am

So, Japanese "right wing" are not even a political force but rather organized crime?
Currently around 10 000 members (in 125 million Japan), decreasing.
Hard to identify them with the whole Japanese government and society, then.

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SkinnedWolf
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29 May 2022, 8:20 am

The following are government and social levels:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine#Post-war_issues_and_controversies

Quote:

The museum and website of the Yasukuni Shrine have made statements criticizing the United States for "convincing" the Empire of Japan to launch the attack on Pearl Harbor just in order to justify war with them, as well as claiming that Japan went to war with the intention of creating a "Co-Prosperity Sphere" for all Asians.[23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_Yasukuni_Shrine

Quote:

There are major controversies surrounding Yasukuni Shrine, a Japanese Shinto shrine to war dead who served the Emperor of Japan during wars from 1867–1951. The controversies involve civilians in service and government officials. Yasukuni is a shrine to house the actual souls of the dead as kami, or "spirits/souls" as loosely defined in the English words. This activity was strictly a religious matter due to the religious separation of State Shinto and the Japanese Government. The priesthood at the shrine has complete religious autonomy to decide to whom and how enshrinement may occur. It is thought that enshrinement is permanent and irreversible by the current clergy. Due to the enshrinement of individuals found to be war criminals by the International Military Tribunal for the Far East and an approach to the war museum considered by some to be nationalist, China, South Korea and North Korea have called the Yasukuni Shrine a microcosm of a revisionist and unapologetic approach to Japanese crimes of World War II.

Of the 2,466,532 people contained in the shrine's Book of Souls, 1,068 were convicted of war crimes by a post-World War II court. Of those, 14 are convicted Class A war criminals ("crime against peace").[1] The war crimes tribunals were carried out by the IMTFE, which comprised the victors of World War II including Australia, Canada, China, France, India, Netherlands, New Zealand, Philippines, United Kingdom, United States, and the Soviet Union.

Due to the nature of the crimes committed, visits to the shrine by Japanese Diet cabinet members in general and Prime Ministers in particular have been controversial. Former Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi made annual personal (non-governmental) visits from 2001 to 2006. China, North Korea, and South Korea have protested various visits since 1985.

Quote:

Visits to the shrine are also controversial in the domestic debate over the proper role of religion in Japanese government. Some Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) politicians insist that visits are protected by the constitutional right to freedom of religion and that it is appropriate for legislators to pay their respects to those fallen in war. However, proposals for the construction of a secular memorial, so that those wishing to honor Japan's military dead do not have to visit Yasukuni, have thus far failed, ostensibly for technical details rather than the rejection of a secular memorial. The Japanese government conducts yearly memorial services to commemorate the War in Budokan ("Martial Arts Hall", a secular building) which is near Yasukuni shrine, so that the attendees can later visit Yasukuni Shrine privately if they so wish. The shrine itself objects to any proposal that a non-religious memorial be built, stating that "Yasukuni Shrine must be the one and only memorial for Japan's military dead." Koizumi has claimed that his visits are to ensure that there will be no further wars involving Japan, causing some to interpret them as an act of remembrance rather than reverence.[citation needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_history_textbook_controversies

Quote:

Japanese history textbook controversies involve controversial content in government-approved history textbooks used in the secondary education (junior high schools and high schools) of Japan. The controversies primarily concern the nationalist right efforts to whitewash the actions of the Empire of Japan during World War II.[1][2]

Another serious issue is the constitutionality of the governmentally-approved textbook depictions of World War II, Japanese war crimes, and Japanese imperialism during the first half of the 20th century. The history textbook controversies have been an issue of deep concern both domestically and internationally, particularly in countries that were victims of Imperial Japan during the war.

Despite the efforts of the nationalist textbook reformers, by the late 1990s the most common Japanese schoolbooks contained references to, for instance, the Nanjing Massacre, Unit 731, and the comfort women of World War II,[2] all historical issues which have faced challenges from ultranationalists in the past.[3] The most recent of the controversial textbooks, the New History Textbook, published in 2000, which significantly downplays Japanese aggression, was shunned by nearly all of Japan's school districts.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre#Debate_in_Japan

Quote:

Denials of the massacre by public officials in Japan
Main article: Nanjing Massacre denial
A faction of Japanese politicians who are unapologetic to the deaths in Nanjing have triggered a recurring point of tension in Sino-Japanese relations.[130][131]

In May 1994, Justice Minister Shigeto Nagano called the Nanjing Massacre a "fabrication".[132]

On June 19, 2007, a group of around 100 Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) lawmakers again denounced the Nanjing Massacre as a fabrication, arguing that there was no evidence to prove the allegations of mass killings by Japanese soldiers. They accused Beijing of using the alleged incident as a "political advertisement".[133][134]

On February 20, 2012, Takashi Kawamura, mayor of Nagoya, told a visiting delegation from Nanjing that the massacre "probably never happened". Two days later he defended his remarks, saying, "Even since I was a national Diet representative, I have said [repeatedly] there was no [Nanjing] massacre that resulted in murders of several hundred thousands of people."[135][136]

On February 24, 2012, Tokyo governor Shintaro Ishihara denies the Nanjing massacre. He alleged it would have been impossible to kill so many people in such a short period of time.[137] He alleges a death toll of 10,000.[138]

On February 3, 2014, Naoki Hyakuta, a member of the board of governors of Japan's public broadcasting company, NHK, was quoted as saying the massacre never occurred.[139] He said that there were isolated incidents of brutality but no widespread atrocity, and criticized the Tokyo Trials figure of 200,000.[140]

Note: The Liberal Democratic Party is the largest party in Japan.

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magz
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29 May 2022, 8:37 am

I wonder how to honor your dead without it becoming political?

From what you quoted:

Quote:

Despite the efforts of the nationalist textbook reformers, by the late 1990s the most common Japanese schoolbooks contained references to, for instance, the Nanjing Massacre, Unit 731, and the comfort women of World War II,[2] all historical issues which have faced challenges from ultranationalists in the past.[3] The most recent of the controversial textbooks, the New History Textbook, published in 2000, which significantly downplays Japanese aggression, was shunned by nearly all of Japan's school districts.[2]

The 5 denial incidents are bad but the last one happened 8 years ago. Presenting them as "representative" to the Japanese today is exactly the tactics Russia used against Ukrainians to paint them as "nazis" and "justify" their invasion.

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SkinnedWolf
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29 May 2022, 8:42 am

Although Japan's victims of World War II are dissatisfied with today's Japan. But no one here is trying to invade them.
China and South Korea will protest every time Japan erases historical records at home. When this behavior spreads internationally, the same goes for it.

Ukraine has never had a Nazi-style aggression against Russia. But Japan had done this to East Asia.

Nowadays, ordinary Chinese and ordinary Japanese have quite a lot of exchanges. But right-wing attempts to tamper with history will not be forgiven.

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magz
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29 May 2022, 9:49 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:

Thanks.
Yes, it's right to protest every time someone tries to tamper history at someone else's expense.

To go forward, reconciliation needs to come from both sides. Out of necessity, Poland is having this process speeded up with Ukraine (and, to lesser extent, with Lithuania), so I can see how it goes. We admit the bad things that have happened - and that they're beyond any doubt over and past. And this leads to next and next acts of trust - sometimes symbolic, like uncovering lions in the Lviv cementery, that were hidden as "symbols of Polish imperialism". Now Ukrainians trust Polish imperialism is over (while Russian imperialism is not) and the lions commemorate the people who died defending Lviv from the Soviets.

There's plenty of bad blood history between neighbouring nations. Moving on from it is a big thing - not easy, requires both sides willing, but ultimately possible.
That's one of the main ideas for founding European Union.

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naturalplastic
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29 May 2022, 1:05 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:

I received information that the official Ukrainian government Twitter posted a propaganda video about the conflict between Russia and Ukraine. The video, which mentions the defeat of fascist and Nazi forces in 1945, is accompanied by pictures of Hitler, Mussolini and Emperor Hirohito.

But the presence of Emperor Hirohito drew protests from Japanese Twitter users.
The Ukrainian government account subsequently fixed the "mistake".

If this is true. The Ukrainian government does not want any support from China.
The Chinese/Vietnamese representatives could be accused of having "Ukrainian blood on their hands" if they did not stand up while Zelensky was speaking. I think the same accusation, "Chinese blood is on their hands", is more appropriate here in reverse.

They could have had their cake and eaten it to. Mention Japan without pissing off the Japanese by simply replacing Hirohito's face with that of Tojo. Thats what we Americans always did...not totally sure WHY we always did that.

To Americans of the WWII generation (my parents), and their grade school kids of the post war years (me) the mantra always went "Hitler and Tojo", or "Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo". But in the post war decades it was never "Hitler, Mussolini, and Hirohito". Just never heard that. Americans kinda sidestepped blaming emperor Hirohito for Japan's aggression, and atrocities (which were comparable to Hitler's).

Even during the war American media used Tojo (or admiral Yamamoto) as the face of Japanese aggression. Then in the post war years America's occupaton of Japan required keeping the emperor on the throne (but only as a powerless figurehead modeled after the modern monarchs of England) to keep Japan quiet while Mac Arthur remade Japan into a democracy. So after the war we had to kinda lay off of the emperor because of that delicate politics (even though he was arguably as complicit as anyone else in the ruling elite of Japan or of Nazi Germany, in aggression and crime). So the scapegoat became Tojo Hediki (or just "Tojo") who was an army general and sometime prime minister during the war- who was indeed a force behind Japanese aggression- but not the only force. Tojo was removed by the Japanese themselves in 1944. And then at wars end we Americans tried and executed him for war crimes. So he was not around in the post war decades to defend himself the way Hirohito was.

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29 May 2022, 2:30 pm

^The relevant tweets are now crowded with East Asians.
There are Japanese people who feel hurt. There are Japanese who do not accept the official Ukrainian apology. There are Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos and a very small number of Japanese who do not accept the official Ukrainian "correction".
And South Korea helped Ukraine.
In any case, Ukraine has offended the whole of East Asia.

Japan was defeated in 1945, and MacArthur took control of Japan. The Americans feared that if Hirohito was executed as a "war criminal", it would trigger a major riot in Japan.
This was extremely unfavorable for the United States to control Japan, and they decided to abandon the trial of the Japanese emperor. In preparation for the coming Cold War, the United States protected key figures of the Japanese fascist regime.
So Emperor Hirohito never got the punishment he deserved for his war crimes. The direct victims of Japanese fascist crimes were not involved in the reckoning.

There is still a "chrysanthemum taboo" in Japan, which prohibits openly talking about the fault of the emperor.
They still had right-wing terrorism after the war and would assassinate critics of the emperor. It seems to exist mainly as a form of something like "political correctness" at the moment.

Ironically, U.S. propaganda during World War II directly used Emperor Hirohito to refer to Japanese fascists.

Previously pro-Ukrainian Chinese would use the example of the Anti-Japanese War to defend Ukraine and use the Japanese practice of World War II as a metaphor for Russia's casus belli. Now they dare not do so.

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Last edited by SkinnedWolf on 29 May 2022, 3:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.

carlos55
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29 May 2022, 2:35 pm

Interesting video of how & where Russian nukes are made (in russian with subtitles)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6i6ImbiKqQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1In1xSt2f5w

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magz
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29 May 2022, 3:13 pm

^^ Ugh, "it's offensive" Twitter fights. I studied one (about transphobia) some time ago and decided: approach only in a full hazmat suit.

Not that the faux pas wasn't likely real - it's not hard at all to offend someone from a different culture without knowing or understanding why. But Twitter algorithms are said to promote the most reaction-inviting content, so flames about offences erupt there really badly.

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Pepe
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29 May 2022, 11:43 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

I’m probably in the “plant potatoes and leave me alone” group myself, though we can’t plant vegetables in our apartment complex.

I'm the: Pay a pittance for someone to plant and harvest the potatoes, and sell them for a massive profit, sort of guy. :mrgreen:

Pepe
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29 May 2022, 11:58 pm

magz wrote:

From European perspective, the modern Japanese "far right" is very unobvious. Are they agressive or calling for agression? Because that's what makes the right "far" in my understanding.

Not recognizing one's own historical atrocities is universal, Germany are a rare exception here - so I wouldn't use this in evaluating modern Japan. Very small number of states in the whole world are not guilty of it.
Some even don't recognize their current atrocities... psychological defense mechanisms are very universal. No one readily sees themself as "the bad guy".

*cough* eisenhower's death camps *cough*
*cough* nuclear slaughter of men, women, and babies *cough*
*cough* Manmade famine after Germany's surrender *cough*
*cough* The reason for the former existence of ISIS *cough*
*cough* The humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan *cough*
*cough* Inviting pootin to invade Ukraine *cough*

:mrgreen:

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