If a girl is raped and pregnant, should she keep the baby?

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hanyo
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06 Nov 2012, 7:09 am

This is an issue that everyone will never be able to agree on.

On one end you have people that consider abortion to be murder. Obviously if they believe that they are never going to think that murdering babies is ok.

On the other end you have people that don't consider abortion to be murder or babies to even be people until they can survive outside the mother's body and don't want to be forced to be an incubator for a baby that they don't even want.



AngelRho
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06 Nov 2012, 7:18 am

Oodain wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
mechanicalgirl39 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
mechanicalgirl39 wrote:
I'm frankly very tired of hearing how my rights always come second to those of a 'baby'.

No. Sorry. I'm a human being. Not even other humans get the right to violate me. So yes, if I were ever raped, you can suck my ass and that 'baby' can suck my adrenaline and die. Yknow because being in a country where abortion is illegal and going elsewhere for one costs close to a thousand, my first feasible option would be plain old rue.


No one is saying that you aren't a human being... What we are pointing out is that the child is also a human being. The child didn't choose to inside you and quite frankly, I don't think the child would want someone like you as his/her biological mother.

The reason why the child's rights should trump yours in this case is due to the fact that you are trying to essentially terminate the child's life, while in contrast pregnency is not nearly as life threatening to the mother as it was 20 years ago. Since the fact of the matter is that the one option involves the death of an innocent child while the other we see both the child and you surviving, this isn't rocket science.

What you are doing is taking out your anger (which is natural) and hatred (which is justified), out on an innocent child (which is not okay), because you can't get at the person that violated you.

There is something known as adoption if you don't want to keep the kid, you don't have to kill the kid.


That's not how right and wrong works. You don't get to violate people even to survive. Including fetuses. If it's a person then guess what...it is subject to the same boundaries everyone else has. No born person gets to force access to someone's body even to survive.

And no, I'm not taking anger out on anyone, I'm simply not open to carrying a pregnancy for any reason. I wouldn't carry a pregnancy even if it was from consensual sex (which is entirely hypothetical, because I don't plan on having sex).

If you're never going to have sex, then you're never going to have to worry about it. The problem here is that you're presuming to tell OTHER people what morality calls they can and cannot make. It's just as unfair as men presuming to tell women what they can/cannot do with their own bodies. You've put yourself outside the circle.


and you are doing excactly the same,

Of course I am! The difference is I can be honest about it and own up to it.

Oodain wrote:
difference is you are trying to decide how the body of others should be used and she her own.

No, that's not it. My concern is for the rights of the unborn. People can do what they want with their own bodies. It's what people are doing with OTHER people's bodies that is an issue. Denying the right to life to the unborn carries for greater consequences for babies than denying the right of the mother to kill her baby has for the mother. mechanicalgirl39 is about the business of dictating the moral calls anti-abortionists when they seek to help those who are unable to help themselves. All I'm trying to do here point out the irony of one person telling other people what they can and cannot feel, or what is right and wrong, when she doesn't even have a dog in the fight.



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06 Nov 2012, 7:43 am

I would less focus on hate, anger or revenge (which are absolutely nothing natural for me, just a beast relict of our past), and focus more an traumata. 9 months long, whenever you are remembered of your pregnancy, which is nearly all the time, you are also forced to remember the violence you endured. Just take something which would really cause a trauma for you, like a car accident when a relative of you died in front of you by burning (or something else, which is really hard to work on) and then try to imagine, that the broken car follows you 9 month long, reminding you every few seconds on that terrible accident, your burning relative, so the memory cant faint. Thanks goodness it never happende to me, but for me not anger or revenge would be the problem, but the problem that you cant work on passing the trauma by as long as you are always force to remember it. Its not about forgetting, bu you need to make distance. (Or i would need it.) As I said, abortion of lifestyle is terrbile in my eyes, and i personally cannot understand it. But most people respect abortion out of medicinal causes or riscs for the mother or the mothers life. And a lifelong trauma just because you couldnt start to therapy and leave it behind, is a medicinal cause in my eyes.

I also do not know if a child isnt harmed anyway in this case. The hormones, the feelings, stress and so on of a pregnant mum are shared with her baby, influencing the growing as well. Instead of the laughing, the cheer, the happiness you share as a mother by realizing the life you bear, best together with and from your beloved partner, every time you face your pergnancy its just sadness, grief, stress and fear, remembering hurt and pain and the wish to suicide to not be forced to feel all this anymore.

I can only decide for me, but i think that everyone must judge alone if he would be strong enough to endure this or not. There is no use forcing someone to endure it, just to receive a suicided dead woman together with a dead baby. Sure there will also be women who feel it in another way, who may be able to profit from pregnancy and to think positive of such a child. But you cannot force to feel like this into someone, because everybody feels the way he feels. I´d like to force on anyone to reduce all their consume, all the s**t that people buy, all the money they waste for nothing but to feel as a better chimp than the others, because with all that money wasted we could save thousends of life already existing, actually and practically dying in this moment, not because we head to endure 9 months of torment to save them, but of such nonsense like "I wanna have new television/car to enlarger my penis.". :( Its making me sad, but i see also killing in this, still i have to accept that i cannot force people to undo and save others life instead of buying nonsense. Accepting this as totally normal, killing other people just to get entertained a little bit, i cannot see how the same society wants to really convince someone, that killing by fun is ok, but killing to escape pain would not.

A child of my partner or an one night stand accident or whatever would be welcome for me in any situation. Job, money, "perfect time", "dream life"... who cares. :) If the worst "worst thing" that in my life will ever happen is an unplanned little brat, able to adress me with "mom" one day, i think i will live a very happy life. :) But i am no superhuman, and I dont think i personally would have the strength for the mentioned above. Its not as if never everything bad happened in my life, but for me it is necessary to focus on to get going again. Doing nothing makes me repeat the bad memories over and over again. Forced to stay in the moment, unable to move forward but yielding the pain 9 months long... i am sorry, but i gotta say NO living, existing person I do not even know, would be worth that much for me. And as sad, as it may be, i think it is pretty normal in a world where we all could save 1000 of to us unkown childrens life every day, but we just dont do it. Instead we are having fun discussing around together.

If it was possible one day to adopt an unborn child by giving it with an operation to another woman, i´d be happy about it. :) Because for me the child itself would not be the problem, but the memory it would force on me.



Last edited by Schneekugel on 06 Nov 2012, 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

MDD123
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06 Nov 2012, 8:00 am

AngelRho wrote:
No, that's not it. My concern is for the rights of the unborn. People can do what they want with their own bodies. It's what people are doing with OTHER people's bodies that is an issue. Denying the right to life to the unborn carries for greater consequences for babies than denying the right of the mother to kill her baby has for the mother. mechanicalgirl39 is about the business of dictating the moral calls anti-abortionists when they seek to help those who are unable to help themselves. All I'm trying to do here point out the irony of one person telling other people what they can and cannot feel, or what is right and wrong, when she doesn't even have a dog in the fight.


Did you read the title of this thread? Even if she doesn't plan on having sex, anyone could be the victim of rape, and women can get pregnant from it. Men don't get pregnant, period.



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06 Nov 2012, 10:39 am

LKL wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
What if the woman is the rapist and she gets pregnent, does she still have a say over what happens to the kid or should the rape victim be the one that decides?

A rapist should never have custody over a child once it's born, but even death row inmates cannot be compelled to donate parts of their body to other people; even a female rapist should be compelled bu the state to donate her body to a zef if she doesn't want to.


So in other words you're suggesting that a female rapist has the right to kill the child that results from her having committed a crime, seems more than a little sexist don't you think.



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06 Nov 2012, 11:40 am

Abortion is a good thing. It gets rid of unwanted children and the women does not have to endure months of pain and getting their vagina wrecked.

Concerning rape, She should definitaley abort it. There is no reason why she should have to suffer even more after being raped.


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Inuyasha
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06 Nov 2012, 11:48 am

TrainofLove wrote:
Abortion is a good thing. It gets rid of unwanted children and the women does not have to endure months of pain and getting their vagina wrecked.

Concerning rape, She should definitaley abort it. There is no reason why she should have to suffer even more after being raped.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPF1FhCMPuQ[/youtube]

Hey those of you that support abortion how about watching this video, and btw the speaker is a woman, so you have no business claiming that she shouldn't have a voice in this.



hanyo
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06 Nov 2012, 11:53 am

Nothing can ever convince me that abortion is bad. I'm not interested in going through an unwanted pregnancy and childbirth.

I'll watch it later when I have time out of curiosity but it won't convince me to have babies.

Edit: I watched a little so far. That video is completely irrelevant to modern times. I don't know about back then but now third trimester abortions are very hard to get and Planned Parenthood only does them to 14 weeks. These days a pregnancy that far progressed would likely be told "sorry, too late, if we induce it will probably survive."

I tried to get one between 20-24 weeks and was told I'd have to go all the way to NYC to find someone that would do it and even then it might be too late.



Inuyasha
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06 Nov 2012, 12:11 pm

hanyo wrote:
Nothing can ever convince me that abortion is bad. I'm not interested in going through an unwanted pregnancy and childbirth.

I'll watch it later when I have time out of curiosity but it won't convince me to have babies.

Edit: I watched a little so far. That video is completely irrelevant to modern times. I don't know about back then but now third trimester abortions are very hard to get and Planned Parenthood only does them to 14 weeks. These days a pregnancy that far progressed would likely be told "sorry, too late, if we induce it will probably survive."

I tried to get one between 20-24 weeks and was told I'd have to go all the way to NYC to find someone that would do it and even then it might be too late.


Actually your own statements contradicted your claim that the video is irrelevant...



hanyo
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06 Nov 2012, 12:13 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

Actually your own statements contradicted your claim that the video is irrelevant...


Which ones? I see no contradiction.



Ann2011
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06 Nov 2012, 12:21 pm

Watched the video. Made me wonder how I would feel if I'd survived an abortion attempt; probably even more resentful than I already am. And to also have been caused to have a degenerative disease because of it. Awful.
Her arguments were no different than any others, but her passion is moving. It's good that they don't perform these late term abortions anymore.
Prior to developing into an autonomous human, while the baby is still dependent on it's mother's womb; it the mother's call. Carrying a baby and giving birth to it is sacred to the mother, not the state.



Inuyasha
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06 Nov 2012, 12:25 pm

hanyo wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:

Actually your own statements contradicted your claim that the video is irrelevant...


Which ones? I see no contradiction.


14 weeks is about 2.5 months assuming every month has only 28 days, that means the time frame that a child actually can survive has gotten earlier in the pregnency as technology has progressed, and these kind of situations are likely getting more common not less.

Just we haven't seen many abortion survivors whom are still children talking about this.



Inuyasha
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06 Nov 2012, 12:31 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
Watched the video. Made me wonder how I would feel if I'd survived an abortion attempt; probably even more resentful than I already am. And to also have been caused to have a degenerative disease because of it. Awful.
Her arguments were no different than any others, but her passion is moving. It's good that they don't perform these late term abortions anymore.
Prior to developing into an autonomous human, while the baby is still dependent on it's mother's womb; it the mother's call. Carrying a baby and giving birth to it is sacred to the mother, not the state.


That time frame where the child can potentially being outside the womb is a lot earlier than it used to be, which means children that survive abortions are in even more danger of developmental damage, not less.

Fact of the matter is my younger sister was a premie, so I am very well aware of the fact that babies are probably aware of their surrounding a lot earlier than what people whom are pro-abortion would like to believe.



hanyo
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06 Nov 2012, 12:31 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

14 weeks is about 2.5 months assuming every month has only 28 days, that means the time frame that a child actually can survive has gotten earlier in the pregnency as technology has progressed, and these kind of situations are likely getting more common not less.

Just we haven't seen many abortion survivors whom are still children talking about this.


Abortions that early can't survive. I'm pretty sure they get ripped apart as they get sucked out. I've seen pictures.



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06 Nov 2012, 12:34 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
LKL wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
What if the woman is the rapist and she gets pregnent, does she still have a say over what happens to the kid or should the rape victim be the one that decides?

A rapist should never have custody over a child once it's born, but even death row inmates cannot be compelled to donate parts of their body to other people; even a female rapist should be compelled bu the state to donate her body to a zef if she doesn't want to.


So in other words you're suggesting that a female rapist has the right to kill the child that results from her having committed a crime, seems more than a little sexist don't you think.


This world is dominated by straight white men. Men are the ones deciding what women do with their bodies. Men are the ones deciding... Well, mostly everything. They decide to pay women less. They decide to treat women as being "Less" than they are. So to sit here and cry and moan about men somehow being poor little victims of sexism is absurdity at it's highest. You have this warped idea in your heard that that a man who is raped will desperately want to keep the child. And even if she does give birth she'll get to keep the baby even if she is in jail for having committed. Well. I don't know. Rape?

The video you posted is irrelevant because I don't support late term abortions.



Ann2011
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06 Nov 2012, 12:40 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
That time frame where the child can potentially being outside the womb is a lot earlier than it used to be, which means children that survive abortions are in even more danger of developmental damage, not less.


I would think that they would have much less of a chance to survive an abortion at an earlier stage. So it might not be as much of an issue.