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Fetal Rights & Forced Medical Treatment: Your Opinion?

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DW_a_mom
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24 Mar 2010, 12:25 pm

phil777 wrote:
According to Spinoza's ethics, a foetus is as much a part of the body as your cells can be. As long as it is within the mother, it remains part of her (and she is connected to it, no one can deny that). A foetus becomes an individual when its umbilical cord is severed. =/ Although i do object to tempering with it for selfish reasons, as was the case of a same-sex couple that wanted their baby be born deaf. <.<


Having given birth to two children I can say, without a doubt, that they became their unique individual selves long before they left my body. There is definitely more than biology at work here, and failing to give any acknowledgement to the simple fact makes it difficult to hear the rest of the argument. You can't discount what mother's everywhere know, and the attempt to do so hinders reasonable resolution of all the connected ethical issues.

(my statement on the issue itself is found earlier in this thread)


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ruveyn
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24 Mar 2010, 1:26 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

Having given birth to two children I can say, without a doubt, that they became their unique individual selves long before they left my body. There is definitely more than biology at work here, and failing to give any acknowledgement to the simple fact makes it difficult to hear the rest of the argument. You can't discount what mother's everywhere know, and the attempt to do so hinders reasonable resolution of all the connected ethical issues.

(my statement on the issue itself is found earlier in this thread)


You are quite right. The fetus is genetically distinct from either of its parents. Spinoza did not know a whit about the physiology of fetuses. His specialty was grinding lenses.

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leejosepho
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24 Mar 2010, 10:25 pm

PLA wrote:
I would say arguing is some way to "think together", but maybe not an optimal way. I'm not sure.


I think the most important part might be actually-and-commonly *wanting* to come to an agreeable conclusion ... and in this particular case, I personally believe a little imagination as to what even the fetus might say, if it could, can be helpful!

After all, it really costs us nothing and we actually gain much when putting the well-being of others ahead of ourselves.


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Sand
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24 Mar 2010, 11:02 pm

leejosepho wrote:
PLA wrote:
I would say arguing is some way to "think together", but maybe not an optimal way. I'm not sure.


I think the most important part might be actually-and-commonly *wanting* to come to an agreeable conclusion ... and in this particular case, I personally believe a little imagination as to what even the fetus might say, if it could, can be helpful!

After all, it really costs us nothing and we actually gain much when putting the well-being of others ahead of ourselves.


But you present it as a simple act of decency. It is not at all simple and it requires behaving badly to behave well. Ideally all fetuses should be permitted to mature and have a decent life as humans and all pregnant women should be delighted with the birth of their child and survive the trials of producing a child with no problems and automatically become good parents. You seem totally unable to comprehend that this is an impossibility.



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25 Mar 2010, 12:46 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
Having given birth to two children I can say, without a doubt, that they became their unique individual selves long before they left my body. There is definitely more than biology at work here, and failing to give any acknowledgement to the simple fact makes it difficult to hear the rest of the argument. You can't discount what mother's everywhere know, and the attempt to do so hinders reasonable resolution of all the connected ethical issues.

(my statement on the issue itself is found earlier in this thread)


Due respect to your experiences, but all mothers do not agree with you; even if they did, subjective perception (even if that perception is shared by many) is not a basis for judgments about the real world. There is no hard evidence for anything other than biology at work, even though some of that biology is neurological and, more importantly, neurochemical reactions that produce love and attachment.

As for ' what the fetus might say,' a la leejosepho, the fetus lacks not only the physiological capability for speech but the mental wiring necessary for thought and even, for that matter, the mental equipment necessary to desire thought and speech. It would say nothing even if it physiologically could.



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25 Mar 2010, 1:08 am

Unless fully developed, I see fetuses merely as a bundle of cells or a tadpole/insect with a tail.

People have these grandiose delusions about human beings having souls or being unique because their in some way alive. While I can certainly relate to an extent of a human with all their nerves and cognitive brain functioning, it's pretty pointless to try and argue with someone who thinks humans have more feelings than a dog or cat being put to sleep b/c they're "pests".

Strange in the way we value human life even in a fetal/fatal state over other living organisms.

I know I'm going to get bashed for having said this so I'm going to run for the nearest exit.............................................Image


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Sand
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25 Mar 2010, 1:14 am

MissConstrue wrote:
Unless fully developed, I see fetuses merely as a bundle of cells or a tadpole/insect with a tail.

People have these grandiose delusions about human beings having souls or being unique because their in some way alive. While I can certainly relate to an extent of a human with all their nerves and cognitive brain functioning, it's pretty pointless to try and argue with someone who thinks humans have more feelings than a dog or cat being put to sleep b/c they're "pests".

Strange in the way we value human life even in a fetal/fatal state over other living organisms.

I know I'm going to get bashed for having said this so I'm going to run for the nearest exit.............................................Image


Hey, lady, anybody tries to bash you for loving other forms of life will get bashed by me. Grab my hand and we'll love the world together.



leejosepho
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25 Mar 2010, 6:41 am

MissConstrue wrote:
Strange in the way we value human life even in a fetal/fatal state over other living organisms.


It would be misleading to say I place the same value on a bug or whatever as on a fetus, for I do not really presume to place/determine the value of either. For me, the issue is more about whether we even consider ourselves to be of any value, and it is that "value", if any, I believe I have no right to claim unless equally ascribed to all else.


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leejosepho
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25 Mar 2010, 6:47 am

LKL wrote:
As for ' what the fetus might say,' a la leejosepho, the fetus lacks not only the physiological capability for speech but the mental wiring necessary for thought and even, for that matter, the mental equipment necessary to desire thought and speech. It would say nothing even if it physiologically could.


Okay, so split hairs if that entertains you.

If you had an opportunity today, what might you say about having been considered for abortion in the past?

Some folks will say they wish that actually had been their fate, but not all, and there is no way any of the others of us could have foreknown either way.


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Sand
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25 Mar 2010, 7:15 am

leejosepho wrote:
LKL wrote:
As for ' what the fetus might say,' a la leejosepho, the fetus lacks not only the physiological capability for speech but the mental wiring necessary for thought and even, for that matter, the mental equipment necessary to desire thought and speech. It would say nothing even if it physiologically could.


Okay, so split hairs if that entertains you.

If you had an opportunity today, what might you say about having been considered for abortion in the past?

Some folks will say they wish that actually had been their fate, but not all, and there is no way any of the others of us could have foreknown either way.


So evidently when they have no capacity for making that decision someone with the capacity has to make the decision.



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25 Mar 2010, 2:56 pm

leejosepho wrote:
If you had an opportunity today, what might you say about having been considered for abortion in the past?


My mother is and was pro-choice. I am glad to know that I was a wanted child, and not a burden on my mother.



PLA
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25 Mar 2010, 4:11 pm

LKL wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
If you had an opportunity today, what might you say about having been considered for abortion in the past?


My mother is and was pro-choice. I am glad to know that I was a wanted child, and not a burden on my mother.


Hmm. It would be a bummer if my life ended now. If it had ended back then, it wouldn't have bothered me as much. If a wizard in a time machine came to the present time to threaten me with abortion, the psychological impact would be more similar to that of my life ending now than to that of having already been aborted.
I would be more disturbed by the time travel scenario, but mostly because of the added insult of erasing all memory of me. It would have the psychological impact of threatening to murder me, cover up all traces of me and zap everyone I know with a memory eraser.

Note: I was very much wanted. Ordered, even. In vitro fertilisation. BTW, does that make me holy and spotless? :P


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iamnotaparakeet
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25 Mar 2010, 4:18 pm

I am a time traveler. I have a time machine on my wrist, even now.



leejosepho
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25 Mar 2010, 4:24 pm

PLA wrote:
Note: I was very much wanted. Ordered, even. In vitro fertilisation. BTW, does that make me holy and spotless? :P


Nah, just sterile!


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iamnotaparakeet
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25 Mar 2010, 4:30 pm

leejosepho wrote:
PLA wrote:
Note: I was very much wanted. Ordered, even. In vitro fertilisation. BTW, does that make me holy and spotless? :P


Nah, just sterile!


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25 Mar 2010, 7:51 pm

Is that that fictional-future-where-abortion-is-illegal sci fi show? Where the character who had an abortion keeps on having halucinations of infants?