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The WP Strident Atheists

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Sand
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04 Dec 2010, 12:22 am

JNathanK wrote:
Yah, form your own little group so you can pat each other on the back and give each other metals for not believing in God.


No worse than forming a group to pat each other on the back for believing in God in some special way.



Fuzzy
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04 Dec 2010, 12:50 am

Orwell wrote:
To be a bit more clear: atheism, where it exists in reaction to and in opposition to some theistic religion, such as Christianity and Islam, is an ideology. "Atheism" in the broadest possible sense of not believing in a theistic God means very little, and does not constitute an ideology as such.


And thats exactly our point. Magnus is having a hard time with it. We are all ideological about a million big and tiny things. But a comatose body with brain death cannot believe in god. Or anything. Magnus would suggest that they have an ideology because they dont believe in god.

When I die my mind will disappear. How do I feel about that? I dont. It is neither good nor bad because there is no experience attached to it. I am neither there yet, nor will I be there after death.

But do I have opinions about organized religion? You bet. But thats no more atheism than my dogs dislike of bread and wine makes him an anti-catholic.


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04 Dec 2010, 1:01 am

Orwell wrote:
To be a bit more clear: atheism, where it exists in reaction to and in opposition to some theistic religion, such as Christianity and Islam, is an ideology. "Atheism" in the broadest possible sense of not believing in a theistic God means very little, and does not constitute an ideology as such.


I made the case several times to Banned_Magnus that while many atheists are anti-theists and anti-theism is an ideology, mere "atheism" with no further information is not an ideology.


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04 Dec 2010, 1:02 am

Fuzzy, in the Western world atheism doesn't just mean "lack of belief in God." It exists as a reaction to Christianity, and it carries with it an alternate, materialistic worldivew.

Certainly atheism defined simply as "not believing in God" is too broad to mean anything. There are a large number of religious people who are atheists, especially within the Buddhist faith. There are even a handful of atheistic (or "post-theistic") Christians out there.


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04 Dec 2010, 1:03 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
I made the case several times to Banned_Magnus that while many atheists are anti-theists and anti-theism is an ideology, mere "atheism" with no further information is not an ideology.

Etymological fallacy. Words don't always mean what they sound like.


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04 Dec 2010, 1:05 am

Orwell wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
I made the case several times to Banned_Magnus that while many atheists are anti-theists and anti-theism is an ideology, mere "atheism" with no further information is not an ideology.

Etymological fallacy. Words don't always mean what they sound like.


How the hell is that the entymological fallacy? Atheism either means a lack of belief in God or the belief that God doesn't exist. That definition does not entail a positive ideology at all, I did make it clear that many atheists hold ideological systems which buttress their atheistic beliefs, though.


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JNathanK
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04 Dec 2010, 1:08 am

Sand wrote:
JNathanK wrote:
Yah, form your own little group so you can pat each other on the back and give each other metals for not believing in God.


No worse than forming a group to pat each other on the back for believing in God in some special way.


Yah, and I wouldn't do either.



Sand
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04 Dec 2010, 1:11 am

JNathanK wrote:
Sand wrote:
JNathanK wrote:
Yah, form your own little group so you can pat each other on the back and give each other metals for not believing in God.


No worse than forming a group to pat each other on the back for believing in God in some special way.


Yah, and I wouldn't do either.


Which indicates group forming is irrelevant to deeply held beliefs or non-beliefs. You just don't like groups.



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04 Dec 2010, 1:41 am

Look, I think I cut to the heart of the issue by pointing out that atheism has two meanings. This broadly agrees with Orwell's point. However, I think Orwell goes too far. There are going to be people who are atheists but who do not mesh well with the atheist movement, and this has to be recognized.



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04 Dec 2010, 1:57 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Look, I think I cut to the heart of the issue by pointing out that atheism has two meanings. This broadly agrees with Orwell's point. However, I think Orwell goes too far. There are going to be people who are atheists but who do not mesh well with the atheist movement, and this has to be recognized.

OK? There are people who are Christians but do not mesh well with the Christian movement. Does this mean Christianity is not an ideology? There are people who are liberals and don't mesh well with the Democratic party; is liberalism not an ideology?


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04 Dec 2010, 1:58 am

Orwell wrote:
OK? There are people who are Christians but do not mesh well with the Christian movement. Does this mean Christianity is not an ideology? There are people who are liberals and don't mesh well with the Democratic party; is liberalism not an ideology?


Is a-unicornism an ideology?


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04 Dec 2010, 2:13 am

Orwell wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Look, I think I cut to the heart of the issue by pointing out that atheism has two meanings. This broadly agrees with Orwell's point. However, I think Orwell goes too far. There are going to be people who are atheists but who do not mesh well with the atheist movement, and this has to be recognized.

OK? There are people who are Christians but do not mesh well with the Christian movement. Does this mean Christianity is not an ideology? There are people who are liberals and don't mesh well with the Democratic party; is liberalism not an ideology?

Well, the issue is that Christianity still has some unifying core of beliefs. One is a Christian by affirming some sort of doctrines about God and Christ. Atheism still has a lack. Now, it may be true that a large number of atheists in the West are materialists, it is still entirely possible (and likely actual) that there are atheists who are not materialists, and who generally do not have many ideas in common with the Atheist movement. That's the real problem I am trying to get at.



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04 Dec 2010, 2:19 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Well, the issue is that Christianity still has some unifying core of beliefs. One is a Christian by affirming some sort of doctrines about God and Christ. Atheism still has a lack. Now, it may be true that a large number of atheists in the West are materialists, it is still entirely possible (and likely actual) that there are atheists who are not materialists, and who generally do not have many ideas in common with the Atheist movement. That's the real problem I am trying to get at.


That was really the concept I was trying to illustrate with my rhetorical question "Is a-unicornism an ideology?"

Christians and materialists could both be a-unicornists - but for entirely distinct rationales. Hence, a-unicornism really isn't an ideology so much as a tidbit of information regarding what isn't one's beliefs. To me, at least, ideologies require broader and more affirmative propositions about the way the state of affairs in the world is or should be.


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04 Dec 2010, 3:14 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Well, the issue is that Christianity still has some unifying core of beliefs. One is a Christian by affirming some sort of doctrines about God and Christ. Atheism still has a lack. Now, it may be true that a large number of atheists in the West are materialists, it is still entirely possible (and likely actual) that there are atheists who are not materialists, and who generally do not have many ideas in common with the Atheist movement. That's the real problem I am trying to get at.


That was really the concept I was trying to illustrate with my rhetorical question "Is a-unicornism an ideology?"

Christians and materialists could both be a-unicornists - but for entirely distinct rationales. Hence, a-unicornism really isn't an ideology so much as a tidbit of information regarding what isn't one's beliefs. To me, at least, ideologies require broader and more affirmative propositions about the way the state of affairs in the world is or should be.

I know, but such an example might have a greater probability of talking past the other person. Maybe it won't. I don't know.



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04 Dec 2010, 4:21 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
I know, but such an example might have a greater probability of talking past the other person. Maybe it won't. I don't know.


If we're not shouting at each other, then we're shouting past each other!


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04 Dec 2010, 4:30 am

I'd also comment on mild irony of me contrasting "materialists" and "Christians", as there is a very, very small intersection between those two categories, and Orwell (the bearded Irish-Ohioan, not the English author) is a member of that tiny intesection.


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