Feminism vs. Equality

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I'm a radical feminist and my ultimate dream is to be a stay at home mom
married to an older, wiser man.

That's just a fantasy, though.

I still don't know what groups or injustices you're referring to. I'm not trying to be difficult either, I don't resort to generalizations.

Well after taking some time to read some of the posts I'd like to say thank you to everyone who got the discussion this far. I haven't really done much participating of the discussions because frankly I'm still unsure if where I stand on many of these issues. I am eighteen years old and while I don't believe age should be an excuse to not be informed (unless you're under thirteen); I do believe that especially now that I'm a legal adult I need to start concentrating more on where I stand politically and ethically. Not that I didn't have an idea of where I was before; but I knew I needed a wider range of ideals to explore my options.
Everyone was very helpful; even the views that I was unsure of or flat out disagreed with because they were informative none the less. I'm going to take more time now to read these things.

*Moving on from me*

Interesting guy on youtube; his name is Paul Elum(spelled wrong) he goes by TheHappyMisogynist on youtube and he works as a "voice for men". If anyone can get past the name of his channel check him out, you anyone feels pissed off by some of the things he says please try to discuss it civily with him and not completey troll him. There are some topics of his I agree on; but there is one where I frankly believe he goes too far and claims that women were never opressed.

xxxThePeachxxx is another person on youtube that has discussed feminist issues; mainly the pornagraphy industry, abortion, and prostitution. She discusses more than just those topics; but they outside of feminism and goes more into religion for the most part (she is an atheist).

Another more known young lady of youtube is a Sex Positive Activist and informer known as Lacigreen; I highly recommend her. Mainly she has discussed the more social issues for women and men's sexuality.

You remarked that real equality takes a long time to be realized.

I replied that it's kinda helped by people deliberately working to move society toward that end.

I'm not referring to anything specific.


And yeah, I have no use for people who proudly refer to themselves as haters of women,
nor people who appeal to political misnomers such as "pro sex" which is a code word for "pro-porn" and "pro-prostitution".

How is this a conspiracy theory, they very clearly are able to move in force for activism, why would that not extend to voting?




The only suitable link I see is the first and last, you do not link an entire website to support one point. The first makes a statement about why women(well it doesn't say women but it only uses traits from the traditional gender role for women) would be granted primary custody based on what services they provided during marriage, but this is not what I asked, I asked for evidence backing your claims that most women do these things still.(The traits used for evaluating primary custody is itself foolish, it does indeed assume(or at least is based on) that the man and woman will be taking the same roles they had in marriage, which obviously didn't work out) I do not see feminists pushing for change in this law, why?

But none of your links provide the evidence I asked for, the last comes closest but 50 couples interviewed personally is not objective evidence, nor is it credible by a large study group. Also that article is 22(or so) years old. And would not describe the current division of labor practiced by couples even if it wasn't flawed as it is.
ng?



Sorry the only reason I could accept for the woman spending a significant amount of more time with their child is a traditional division of labor(and considering the only reason custody laws still support women more than men is because of a traditional view, my argument holds up.), this slipped into my argument my apologies. You still by the way need to address my argument.



You are mistaking my argument for something else, that argument is for shared parenting not a primary custody arrangement with the man as primary caregiver. Why would the court assume that the status quo is meant to be maintained, just because she was a 'primary caregiver' during the marriage has no baring on whether or not the man is capable of taking on an equal share after the marriage, nor whether such a route should be considered.



The link(that is the citation for that information) is dead find another source. If you can find a suitable link that makes similar claims I will address them.



The information you are referring to has no source, find one otherwise I cannot address your argument in any meaningful way.



Nothing wrong from a request from an independent organization. Wikipedia does not fit this(for future reference) every activist organization under the sun constantly attempts to plant their own slants on articles.(I believe the term is 'astro-turfing') And it should not be used with the discussion concerns major political groups. But this is moot because you quote information from one source.






10 years is too long of a time period to address current trends, especially when said trends have been shown to be progressing at a fast pace. Are you going to find replacements?



The usual ways being activism(media, laws) feminism has never addressed the increasing role of fathers in work that might be considered traditionally womens, and they have not been lobbying to update laws to a more fair state, that is to say they have not been lobbying for shared parenting laws. Which makes me question how you can make this out to be a feminist issue when no feminist movement has addressed the changes feminism has had in regards to males. As you said your brother realized himself what kind of man he wanted to be, so while his changes can(potentially) be attributed to feminist influence on society it is not because of any activism seeking to reward or encourage active participation of males in the caregiver role
.


Yes, I do not think businesses will have trouble adjusting to shared parenting policies or views.



You still have not proven that last claim. Your response however doesn't address my question, I was referring to the 'motherhood penalty' that is gained by a few years absence from the workforce(for child care, in a primary caregiver role), or did you not address it because you think it is a moot point? Flexible hours can already be negotiated, why did you bring that up though, I am not sure?



I suppose it shouldn't rest solely on earning, but I shouldn't be making arguments for primary custody, I don't understand it completely(I understand it's intents, but I do not understand why it would persist in a feminist society)



Most couples today would say split it, this isn't really a contentious issue, the only sources you have that would suggest it is are outdated(one being nonobjective even if it was redone in current times.). That statement assumes of course that the sources you have are the ones provided.

Also I have not seen many women in my age group who can cook(that would be two, neither of them as well as me), so that statement amuses me somewhat. But that could just be because we are young.

EDIT: ignore the random 'ng?' a pasting issue with my [quote] tags.

QFT.
This illustrates the point that I'm trying to make.

No?
How about this?
http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/ ... index.html
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/16/r ... gang-rape/
http://www.alternet.org/rss/1/513829/11 ... &rd=1&t=13
or this?
http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/2008/11/06/somalia
or this?
http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/fe ... _at_school
or this?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 10,00.html
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2010/01/26/13 ... ary-raped/
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-07-31/us/m ... e?_s=PM:US

That's just a few minutes' search on the rather narrow topic of rape. I could keep going.

It is a conspiracy theory because you are attributing far more organization and cohesiveness to the group, 'feminists,' than can even remotely be demonstrated to exist.

I linked to specific articles, not to entire sites; and, conveniently, the ones you disregard are the ones that support the claims about women doing more of the work.


If women get primary custody most of the time, and
if custody is granted based on the legal criteria set forth in the first link (ie, which partner provides most of the care before the divorce),
then it follows that women fulfill the legal criteria better than men most of the time.
Unless you think there's a vast conspriacy within the legal system to favor women against what is best for the child?

in any case:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01639.html, quote:
...recent research shows that over the past four decades, fathers like Clark have nearly tripled the hours they spend focused on their children.
They still lag behind American mothers, who put in about twice as many hours directly involved with their children and doing housework. But, as researcher Suzanne M. Bianchi put it, today's fathers "do a lot more than their fathers did."
fasnafan.tripod.com/family.pdf
see page 358
http://factoidz.com/the-times-of-workin ... rs-part-2/
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/542/modern-marriage
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20802807
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1408864
http://journals.lww.com/nursingresearch ... ual.7.aspx

for fun:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ework.html


I repeat: If the man wants to take on more child care after the marriage, more power to him. However, if he avoided it when he was married, he's unlikely to take it on (or to be very good at it) after the marriage, and it will be distressing to the children to be placed with the parent who didn't care for them instead of the one who did. If both parents claim that they want to be primary caretakers, who should the judge believe? The one who has slacked up to the divorce, or the one who has already been a primary caretaker?

{snip wikipedia divorce stats}

Given that you're tossing out sources as willy-nilly, and seemingly with almost as little justification, I doubt that a revelation from a god would be a 'suitable source' for you. However, here goes:
http://www.straightdivorce.com/divorce_ ... istics.asp
http://www.pobronson.com/factbook/pages/227.html
http://www.divorce360.com/divorce-artic ... ?artid=169


http://www.straightdivorce.com/divorce_ ... istics.asp (3rd paragraph)
http://exconnection.com/advice/11-divor ... ed-divorce


ORLY?


I challenge your claim that trends have been shown to be progressing at a fast pace ('fast' being, in this case, years instead of decades), either on this thread or anywhere else, and I disagree that timed data is of no value to this discussion.

*snort* The only way you could possibly say something like that is that you haven't been paying attention. This is an ongoing, continually discussed issue on feminist blogs, sociology courses, and in women's studies classes.


This is a sociological issue, not a legal one.


The latter. My primary interest in this discussion has been the division of childcare and housework when both parents work outside the home. If one parent decides to stop working completely (usually, but not always the mother), they will see a decrease in future employability and future earnings because of lost experience.

Flexible hours can already be negotiated, why did you bring that up though, I am not sure?
Flexible hours can sometimes be negotiated with some employers. This is another sociological feminist issue - addressed mainly by feminists because women are more impacted by child care than men are - that would also benefit men.

I consider my points adequately made. I predict that you will find fault with the current sources without addressing their points, but I am done with this portion of the argument.

Please , read my post on page 1.

It is this *fantasy* which is holding your gender back now.

I thought that the ultimate goal of radical feminism is the abolish of the patriarchal system and implying an egalitarian society instead.

By wishing an older, wiser man as an ultimate dream, you're just enforcing the system that your movement claims to be against.

So does this mean I'm perpetrating racism because I married a white guy? Or am I countering the marriage equality movement because I didn't end up with a woman?

Seriously, the feminist movement was about giving women CHOICES. We are not working against feminism by being housewives and stay at home mothers. That assertion is utterly ridiculous.

Organization is not required for a cohesive movement, I only claimed that feminism acted as a political group not that it shared the same organizational traits.



3 of your links didn't go to articles.



But the criteria are not just, if they are getting divorced and assuming one partner does not need spousal support, why would the man need to maintain his current hours? In theory they would have roughly the same hours no? Then why shouldn't shared parenting be the go to policy?



First link claims equal marital duties when paid and unpaid work is tallied, I cannot find a date on the second link but the only comment is 6 months old and contradicts the 2007 article,



Shows a shared workload as ranking in importance for both men and women(2007)(Also states later that only 7% view it as unimportant) The article also states that this question has risen the most in their poll, Fourth link just states that perceived unfairness in division of labor upsets both men and women, it makes no actual claims about whether or not the perceptions where valid. Fifth Link states that the amount of child care fathers participate in grows with female employment aka attempts at equal division of labor are shown if not in intent then in practice(Although it doesn't actually state if the relation is proportional), Sixth Link, is same as the last, 7th link affirms the fourth link.

So all you have shown is that current trends in marriage lean towards an equal division of labor, the fact that the man is not spending all his time with the child is not indicative that he is shirking a parental duty, nor is it confirmation that he might not be willing to lower his working hours for a shared parenting plan. Your second link is the black sheep of the bunch btw.



Your above links contradict any claims that the man is avoiding child care out of anything other than doing his fair share. There for how can you argue against a shared parenting presumption. The rest are your own prejudice and have no factual basis, if the woman learned how to care for their children why would the man be unable to? And once again I feel that I must state that I am arguing for shared parental custody presumptions not for male primary custody. Shared parenting presumptions(or just presumptions) work on the basis that the person(or persons) going against the presumption must prove that it is in the child's best interest to do so, I probably should have said presumption from the start instead of policy. Your slacked phrase("The one who slacked up to the divorce") contradicts the links you provided that showed a desire for equal division of labor from both parents. Your saying that because the man did not do as much of the child care work as the woman that he is slacking, I don't know why you would provide links contradicting this claim.





First link, says estimated but supplies no source(95% uncontested), And I am going to assume your referring to



With the second link, which still does not contradict my claim that they objected to the current setup in some way, although i suppose only the first two match my claim in how general they are. Third link does not include a comprehensive list of options in their poll(which can be reached through a link at the end, although I could just be confusing it as it looks like it might be a separate poll). Also seeing as to how their website concerns divorce and provides domestic abuse support their numbers might be influenced with that, I would lean towards the second link.






Addressed the first above I think, it is simply making a statement and does not source a study.(They could be for instance citing their own caseload, which isn't useful unless they operate over a large region.) Second Link, links to http://exconnection.com/advice/11-divor ... d-divorce# , Which just repeats what your link says(although I suppose it's the other way around) but doesn't provide its source, anyone can repeat a statistic LKL that doesn't make it true.


?




Although it may not be yearly one of your links above show fast progression towards shared division of labor marriage views.




I read a lot of news but I do not look for feminist blogs or websites in particular(although sometimes I do get led there from something else), so that way is possible, but there are still no feminist lobbies for shared parenting presumptions which would be the most egalitarian policy for child custody. In fact feminists(Note I am not saying all feminists, this is too say feminists as individuals have) have gone up against such claims on the basis that it will place children in abusive homes.(Which is baseless as presumptions can be broken with evidence) Womens groups have also campaigned against laws in Australia that would move child custody to a presumption of shared custody and require counseling to accommodate the shared parenting policy.




No when men and women are held equal the law should match, holding men and women are equal the presumption should be that shared custody is the most fair minded policy.(With of course exceptions for domestic violence or gross negligence) The current laws state that their must be a primary caregiver and smacks of inequality any way you paint it, to assert that one parent is less than the other with no basis.




And using your sources division of labor has been shown as equal or that is it has been shown that equality is the ideal that couples strive for.



Employers will always work with valuable employees. I did not bring up flexible hours, you did, feel free to go reread the posts. And a tax credit for providing flexible hours for mothers and fathers would solve the issue, would it not?



Addressed.

I invite anyone to read the entirety of the links that I suggested. Though they come from multiple sources and don't always agree, I picked balanced sources (from which Ikorack picked only the parts that supported his claims). They show that child care has traditionally been, and remains, primarily the responsibility of the wife, although both men and women (especially young men and young women) hold equality as an ideal and actively work towards that goal. Thank you, feminism (ignorance is not an argument, Ikorack).

I do know that until a decade and a half ago, there was still a lingering presumption in the courts that mothers make better primary parents than fathers and there's still a sort of stigma against "stay at home dads". I really view it as a consequence of traditional gender roles (men were viewed as better suited to the - very powerful and agenda setting role - of participants in the public sphere whereas women were relegated to a lesser status, confined to the "private sphere". However, as a result of this residual ideology, more sensitive men have had a difficult time gaining access to "traditionally feminne roles" like primary childcare provider). The number of single-fathers, though, is growing quite a bit: http://www.thestar.com/article/257333

As an example of this prejudice against men in the private sphere, see this LiberalViewer clip:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCdr-WZlRc4&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]

Yes but the links also show that when a women wants to break traditional roles the man will comply and the division of labor accommodates, now in a divorce considering your links which do show that an equal division of labor is the ideal, what basis is there to assume that one spouse is only working at his/her job to avoid child care and base custody on that? Also what basis is there to assume that one parent cannot adjust to a less traditional(and more equal) division of labor if the benefit is being able to raise their child as an equal? How is ignorance my argument, I read your links and used the parts that were relevant to my arguments, that is not an argument from ignorance.

EDIT: I didn't see where your young men and women statement was stated or evidenced(in the links you provided), could you tell me?

Yes it is also increasing in America, albeit slowly(I think it was 2% over either 2,5, or 10 years I can't remember right now), they don't list how fast it is going up in Canada however nor what percentage of single father households are a result of court decisions.

"I've never been able to find out precisely what feminism is. I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat." -Rebecca West