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Theism and Explanation

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blunnet
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12 Apr 2011, 1:33 pm

leejosepho wrote:
01001011 wrote:
lol. If the soul can see then why there are blind people?

Do you consciously mean to limiting non-physical "sight" to mere "soul sight"?

Why blind people cannot see?

We need our eyes (and functioning properly) to perceive images, we need our brain to process the information, we are dependent on those physical things to be able to get and understand our environment, a non-physical entity does not have organs to perceive their surroundings, it does not have a brain to process the information. How a non-physical entity can perceive and interpret its surroundings, how can a non-physical entity even think?

Non-physical cognition has never been observed nor examined as far as I am concerned and it contradicts what we know of physiology.



leejosepho
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12 Apr 2011, 5:20 pm

blunnet wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
In the case of the National Geographic documentary telling of a man who had post-operatively reported some unique and unusual arm movements made by the doctor during that man's surgery while he (that man) had been completely "out" (sedated) and his eyes had even been taped shut (common OR practice), "science" (the investigators, doctors, etc.) had no explanation to offer at all ... and neither did National Geographic suggest any (as I recall). So then, shall we now just conclude the incident either never really happened or was just some kind of hoax?

No explanation != Imaginary tales that contradict laws of physics

Who has decided physics must be involved in everything? It is certainly fine if/when a physicist does not bother investigating anything not physical, but that does not mean nothing else is possible.

blunnet wrote:
psychology and I believe neurology seem to explain what is behind religious experiences ...

My claim of having been given some information that could not have possibly come from me was not a religious experience. I understand the physicist might not be interested in investigating whatever happened, but I refuse to believe that means there is therefore no way to do any investigation. See, I am not trying to bring any or all of us to any particular conclusion, but you and/or others seem to have already projected and decided the matter ... and that makes no logical sense.


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sartresue
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12 Apr 2011, 8:59 pm

leejosepho wrote:
blunnet wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
In the case of the National Geographic documentary telling of a man who had post-operatively reported some unique and unusual arm movements made by the doctor during that man's surgery while he (that man) had been completely "out" (sedated) and his eyes had even been taped shut (common OR practice), "science" (the investigators, doctors, etc.) had no explanation to offer at all ... and neither did National Geographic suggest any (as I recall). So then, shall we now just conclude the incident either never really happened or was just some kind of hoax?

No explanation != Imaginary tales that contradict laws of physics

Who has decided physics must be involved in everything? It is certainly fine if/when a physicist does not bother investigating anything not physical, but that does not mean nothing else is possible.

blunnet wrote:
psychology and I believe neurology seem to explain what is behind religious experiences ...

My claim of having been given some information that could not have possibly come from me was not a religious experience. I understand the physicist might not be interested in investigating whatever happened, but I refuse to believe that means there is therefore no way to do any investigation. See, I am not trying to bring any or all of us to any particular conclusion, but you and/or others seem to have already projected and decided the matter ... and that makes no logical sense.


In god Lee trusts topic

This is the essence of what is going on with Lee. god just is, and it is god that is the enabler of sobriety. god is real for him and does not need to be proved. When Lee was ready, god gave him the strength. This works for Lee.

To me it seems like a one-off, and this is how I see religion, god, theism, what ever it is that faith engenders. This does not work for me, or for many people here at WP. I would not rely on it, and it is not necessary for my well being, my health, or my 30 years of smoke freedom, or my lack of alcoholism, or lack of drug addiction, or lack of food addiction, or whatever. I consider myself very fortunate indeed. 8)

What ever turns your crank. Just keep it oiled so it will not squeak and annoy the neighbours. :lol:


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leejosepho
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13 Apr 2011, 6:53 am

sartresue wrote:
In god Lee trusts topic

Either way, I would still like to hear what people say about how we deal with the report of a man who had post-operatively reported some unique and unusual arm movements made by the doctor during that man's surgery.


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cdfox7
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13 Apr 2011, 8:04 am

blunnet wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
01001011 wrote:
lol. If the soul can see then why there are blind people?

Do you consciously mean to limiting non-physical "sight" to mere "soul sight"?

Why blind people cannot see?

We need our eyes (and functioning properly) to perceive images, we need our brain to process the information, we are dependent on those physical things to be able to get and understand our environment, a non-physical entity does not have organs to perceive their surroundings, it does not have a brain to process the information. How a non-physical entity can perceive and interpret its surroundings, how can a non-physical entity even think?

Non-physical cognition has never been observed nor examined as far as I am concerned and it contradicts what we know of physiology.


I hear that blind people can seen in there dreams, I don't any findings to back that claim.

Also there's been an neuropsychological study into the blind seeing with here ears.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 104123.htm



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13 Apr 2011, 8:06 am

leejosepho wrote:
01001011 wrote:
lol. If the soul can see then why there are blind people?

Do you consciously mean to limiting non-physical "sight" to mere "soul sight"?


What do you mean by "soul sight"?

How does your soul theory explain why that particular patient can see the doctor, while those with eye defect cannot see using the same trick?



leejosepho
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13 Apr 2011, 8:28 am

01001011 wrote:
How does your soul theory explain why that particular patient can see the doctor, while those with eye defect cannot see using the same trick?

I am not suggesting any "soul theory", and why do you presume some kind of "trick" might be at play? A man has reported somehow "seeing" the doctor at work while he (that man) was unconscious, and I am simply curious about how that might have happened.


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01001011
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13 Apr 2011, 10:54 am

What report? Have we established the man ever seen anything, as opposed to a dream vaguely similar to what happen inside the operation room? Scenes of operation are common in TV and movies.

Furthermore, even when sedated, the chemicals of the eyes and nerves still works. The man may form an impression when he recovers.

Again how does these kind of vague report justify anything supernatural?



leejosepho
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13 Apr 2011, 1:22 pm

01001011 wrote:
What report? Have we established the man ever seen anything ...?

Yes. Following his surgery, the man reported having seen the doctor make some unusual, exclusive-to-him movements only knowable by someone who had actually been there to observe them.

01001011 wrote:
Furthermore, even when sedated, the chemicals of the eyes and nerves still works ...

The man's eyes had been taped shut prior to the surgery, and a protective curtain had stood between his head and the doctor.

01001011 wrote:
Again how does these kind of vague report justify anything supernatural?

The report is not vague, and it is not being used to justify anything. I am simply curious as to how the man was later able to report something it would have been completely impossible for him to physically observe.


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ruveyn
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13 Apr 2011, 1:33 pm

leejosepho wrote:
01001011 wrote:
What report? Have we established the man ever seen anything ...?

Yes. Following his surgery, the man reported having seen the doctor make some unusual, exclusive-to-him movements only knowable by someone who had actually been there to observe them.

.


In short either the truth or a delusion and no one can independently say which.

ruveyn



leejosepho
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13 Apr 2011, 1:42 pm

ruveyn wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
01001011 wrote:
What report? Have we established the man ever seen anything ...?

Yes. Following his surgery, the man reported having seen the doctor make some unusual, exclusive-to-him movements only knowable by someone who had actually been there to observe them.

In short either the truth or a delusion and no one can independently say which.

So then, the report can only be deemed true by the *scientist* if it can be reproduced in a laboratory ...

... and now what shall the remainder of us do with it?


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sartresue
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13 Apr 2011, 1:42 pm

leejosepho wrote:
01001011 wrote:
What report? Have we established the man ever seen anything ...?

Yes. Following his surgery, the man reported having seen the doctor make some unusual, exclusive-to-him movements only knowable by someone who had actually been there to observe them.

01001011 wrote:
Furthermore, even when sedated, the chemicals of the eyes and nerves still works ...

The man's eyes had been taped shut prior to the surgery, and a protective curtain had stood between his head and the doctor.

01001011 wrote:
Again how does these kind of vague report justify anything supernatural?

The report is not vague, and it is not being used to justify anything. I am simply curious as to how the man was later able to report something it would have been completely impossible for him to physically observe.


AWAKE topic

If I was said man mentioned here I would be calling for an inquiry as to why the effect of anaesthesia might not have been sufficient. gAAAAAAAAAAAWDawful


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leejosepho
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13 Apr 2011, 1:46 pm

sartresue wrote:
If I was said man mentioned here I would be calling for an inquiry as to why the effect of anaesthesia might not have been sufficient.

You would likely be told the anesthesia only addresses actual physical matters.


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ruveyn
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13 Apr 2011, 4:06 pm

leejosepho wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
01001011 wrote:
What report? Have we established the man ever seen anything ...?

Yes. Following his surgery, the man reported having seen the doctor make some unusual, exclusive-to-him movements only knowable by someone who had actually been there to observe them.

In short either the truth or a delusion and no one can independently say which.

So then, the report can only be deemed true by the *scientist* if it can be reproduced in a laboratory ...

.?


reproduced by OTHERS. There is the independent corroberation.

That is why you can more justly believe a verified scientific finding than religious or mystic woo woo.

ruveyn



leejosepho
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13 Apr 2011, 4:14 pm

ruveyn wrote:
reproduced by OTHERS. There is the independent corroberation.

That is why you can more justly believe a verified scientific finding ...

Sure, but that is not the kind of thing we are talking about here ...

... and is everything non-physical truly only "woo woo"?

That makes no sense.


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ruveyn
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13 Apr 2011, 4:17 pm

leejosepho wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
reproduced by OTHERS. There is the independent corroberation.

That is why you can more justly believe a verified scientific finding ...

Sure, but that is not the kind of thing we are talking about here ...

... and is everything non-physical truly only "woo woo"?



Yes. Everything that exists is physical (which is to say natural).

ruveyn