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Misslizard
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21 Jan 2013, 1:43 pm

It's called"keeping it in the family".


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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21 Jan 2013, 2:01 pm

Misslizard wrote:
I know some first cousins who married.The kids seem ok.
My Aunt thought I should marry my cousin,he's a cousin by marriage NOT by blood but only because she had some archaic Idea of keeping wealth in the family.

I might could have a relationship with a very distant cousin but definitely not one of the firsts! I don't have much interest in them and they don't in me. I suspect they have married their cousins though because they all marry into families from the same area and everyone there is related to each other so how can they not be married to a cousin? A distant cousin but still a cousin none the less!

I have a cousin who has a child born with a very rare genetic disorder affecting the bone marrow (he even had to go to the Mayo Clinic for treatment and had to be put on growth hormones, eventually. Thought he needed a bone marrow transplant. Ended up not having one and had growth hormone treatments instead. Forgot the name of the disorder or maybe my mom never actually told me the name and I never asked.) This disorder is incredibly rare and can only manifest if two very rare recessive genes are paired together at conception. The odds of that happening in a population with genetic diversity is very remote. Nearly impossible. However, in this area of the state, the odds of it happening are perhaps higher because of the interbreeding which I think might be the case with these cousins. It's not that they are closely related, my cousin and his wife, just that they are possibly related because everyone in this area marries others from there. They don't spread out much. Some do, but many do not. It's the stereotypical "I don't trust anyone further than ten miles away" mindset. This explains how these two rare recessive genes happened to appear in the same child.



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21 Jan 2013, 2:31 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
LKL wrote:
Depends on how far back you go. If you're going far enough back that our skulls and bipedal stance didn't make it as dangerous to give birth as it is for modern humans (such that we could 'give birth in a field,' without much problem), our behavior was probably a lot like that of either chimpanzees or bonobos. Bonobos have sex with anything that moves, but it's pretty much mutually consensual; chimpanzees are aggressive and jealous, as well as violent with neighboring tribes, but the pretty much only mate when the female is in estrus - and the head male generally guards that privilege without sharing, if he can.

I think that we're talking about modern humans, though.

I am talking about the Hunter/Gatherers that existed before the Egyptian Dynasties, Sumerians, Babylonians, ancient Chinese, Mayans. Incas, Anasazi, or anyone else who created a civilization out of urban dwellings concentrated in one area, more or less. They would live more like wild chimpanzees than modern man. You could call mankind existing in urban areas modern, although mores do change over the years, or, they have in the Western world.


I'm reading the book After the Bounty by James Morrison.

http://www.amazon.com/After-Bounty-Sail ... 1597973718

He provides a lot of details about life among the Tahitians in the late 18th century. They hadn't developed cities. But, they did quite well for themselves with tools made of rocks, bones, coral, wood, bamboo, other plants, etc. They weren't exactly Hunter/Gatherers, as they raised pigs and did gardening. Between the Hunter/Gatherer phase and the growth of cities, there must have been a long phase of several thousand years where our ancestors used stone tools, raised livestock and planted gardens. And, they didn't live at all like wild chimpanzees.


It's absolutely a common phase cultures in many places go through when they're between a Paleolithic and Neolithic way of life. Archeologists have found a similar way of life led by descendants of the Cro Magnons in Denmark, north Germany, and the Netherlands, where they had raised pigs and some other animals as a food source, while still depending on hunting and fishing. When agrarian immigrants into Europe with their Neolithic level of culture had made commercial contacts with the north, they had sold (traded) grain to the inhabitants, prior to them learning to grow cereals themselves.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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21 Jan 2013, 2:35 pm

mercifullyfree wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
And, dolphins also apparently consider our women to be luscious sex objects.


FWIW, female dolphins consider our men to be sex objects as well and sexually assault them. They know what they want and they gonna get it.

"Later on, she got much more aggressive, like you read in the chapter I put online. She beat up my girlfriend and tossed her out of the pool and she would come on very strongly to me. She would rub her vulva against me. She would masturbate on my feet. If I didn't let her do that, if I resisted, she would beat me up. One time, when I was especially resisting, she pushed me down to the bottom of the pool, which was 12 feet deep."

Man who made love to dolphin interview


Does anyone remember that episode of King Of The Hill, where Hank is talked into swimming with a dolphin? Hank ended up getting humped by the dolphin, much to his embarrassment and horror.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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21 Jan 2013, 2:48 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Does anyone remember that episode of King Of The Hill, where Hank is talked into swimming with a dolphin? Hank ended up getting humped by the dolphin, much to his embarrassment and horror.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

:lmao:


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21 Jan 2013, 5:47 pm

Jono wrote:
I google this and I can't find evidence that Australian aborigines actually endorse gang rape as cultural practice. Everything I've read suggests that they don't, and that was stated so by the traditional leaders themselves, although there seems to be attitude among some Australian judges that rape is "traditional".


Well, here is something, regarding the Aranda Aborigines in Northern Territory.

http://dice.missouri.edu/docs/australia ... Aranda.pdf

Quote:
4.18 Do females enjoy sexual freedoms?
No. Women are often forced into sexual relations with men other than their husband: --“At times, a man will lend his wife to a stranger as an act of courtesy, always provided that he belongs to the right section” (the same section he belongs to). In the normal marriage, “the woman is private property of one man and no one without his consent can have access to her, though he may lend her privately to individuals who stand in the same relationship to her as her husband does”. --“In the case of women who attend the corrobboree [a meeting ceremony of several people], it is supposed to be the duty of every man at different times to send his wife to the ground” in which other men are allowed to have sex with the woman. “The individuals concerned have no choice.”

4.19 Evidence of giving gifts to extramarital partners or extramarital offspring.
--This does not occur. Extramarital sex does not even frequently occur. It only takes place when: a husband gives another man “sexual access” to his wife as an act of courtesy or appeasement; or when a husband gives several men sexual access to his wife at a meeting ceremony. The act of sex in both cases is viewed as a duty or social contract.


Feminists and Christians would both be outraged. But, coitus is a part of life, and every society must determine the procedures by which its members are to gain access to coitus. Aranda ladies have to perform in an occasional gang-bang, and have to perform coitus with anyone whom their husbands say. Plus, they have to marry at the age of 14 or 15. This isn't any worse than modern humans using the internet to find coital partners.

Regarding marriage

Quote:
4.17 Preferential category for spouse (e.g., cross cousin)
--OLDER TRADITIONAL TIMES: The Aranda social organization was based on exogamous intermarrying groups. The Aranda people are divided into two halves or moieties. These moieties are called “Mberga oknirra” and “Mberga tungwa”. The moieties are then also divided into two groups, forming four sections. Each of these four sections can be again divided into two groups, forming eight sub-sections. Males in one moiety must marry females from a select sub-section from the other moiety and vice versa. Another way to look at this is to say a man marries the daughter of his mother’s mother’s brother’s daughter. The systems practical result is to prevent close interbreeding and to bring about the mating of men and women belonging to different localities and different families.

--“Marriages were originally arranged between families on a promise system, although this system has been increasingly eroded up to the present time. Today, people are just as likely to marry "sweethearts" as they are to marry into the "correct" families. The prescribed marriage category for a man is mother's mother's brother's daughter's daughter, but other categories have always been allowed.”


They were typically assigned to their second cousins. But, it looks like they didn't necessarily see a link between coitus and conception.

Quote:
4.13 What is the belief of the role of males in conception; is paternity partible? Are these “other fathers” recognized? -
-“Souls of legendary ancestors associated with totems floated through the air and impregnated women, and their souls were thus burn again. Except for Roheim, fieldworkers among the Aranda claimed that they denied the role of males in paternity.” (4)

4.14 What is the belief of the mother’s role in procreation exactly? (e.g., “receptacle in which fetus grows”)
-In older times (around the 1930s when Spencer and Gillen published their Aranda ethnography), it was believed that totems entered into the bodies of women and impregnated them. Therefore, ancestral spirits were responsible for the conception; the mother was responsible for birthing the baby.



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21 Jan 2013, 5:54 pm

They won't engage in coitus with me unless they can answer my riddles AND beat me at arm wrasslin',no golden apples needed,unless they're the eatin' kind. :o


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21 Jan 2013, 6:27 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
LKL wrote:
. Bonobos have sex with anything that moves, but it's pretty much mutually consensual; chimpanzees are aggressive and jealous, as well as violent with neighboring tribes, but the pretty much only mate when the female is in estrus - and the head male generally guards that privilege without sharing, if he can.


Not quite.

Male chimps grant "sex privileges" to their allies in order to maintain power.

Male chimpanzees rise to "alpha" status by forming alliances with other males, not by exerting brute strength. A single male chimp isn't strong enough to completely prevent other males from mating. He only "hordes" the females when they are at the height of fertility, but even then he is only ever partially successful.

**source: various works by Frans De Waal**

I suspect Hunter/Gatherer societies might have been similar. One man is going to have a difficult time controlling all the other men.


Certainly a lack of sex can lead to all sorts of psychological problems, which impact both on the individual and upon society at large.

Regarding the Aranda of Northern Territory again,

http://dice.missouri.edu/docs/australia ... Aranda.pdf
Quote:
4.15 Out-group versus in-group cause of violent death:
IN-GROUP: Within the Aranda people, breaking the law can lead to physical injury or death:
--“Many infringements of law, usually to do with ritual property or marriage and access to women, are solved by mobility and asylum, but there are also different types of violent punishment (which have historically included the death penalty, the spearing of limbs, and rape).”

OUT-GROUP (Out-group in the sense that there are conflicts between different Aranda kinship groups and also between the Aranda people and other Western desert people):
--“Conflict usually arises over sexual relations and access to ritual property, land, and locally generated wealth. It may manifest itself in sorcery accusations and violent feuding or "payback" killings. In many areas, particularly where populations are relatively dense, conflict has increased, partly because of the indiscriminate placing together of different tribal peoples and partly because of access to alcohol.”



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21 Jan 2013, 6:35 pm

^^^^^^I could make so many cultural jokes out of that........but I won't.


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22 Jan 2013, 8:21 am

Aw.



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22 Jan 2013, 10:13 am

many people go a lifetime without sex without any ill effects whatsoever. it seems like the biggest problems arise when there is the desire (common), but added to that.... some people have a sense of entitlement to sex (often this culturally mandated), and if there is a feeling that it is being denied, then that creates all sorts of problems.

the obvious solution is to adjust our cultural expectations so that people no longer believe they are entitled.


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22 Jan 2013, 10:35 am

hyperlexian wrote:
many people go a lifetime without sex without any ill effects whatsoever. it seems like the biggest problems arise when there is the desire (common), but added to that.... some people have a sense of entitlement to sex (often this culturally mandated), and if there is a feeling that it is being denied, then that creates all sorts of problems.

the obvious solution is to adjust our cultural expectations so that people no longer believe they are entitled.

I agree that there is a feeling of entitlement to sex in both men's and women's attitudes. And that this is, if not created, at least reinforced and popularized through the media.
I really think there is far too much fussing about sex. When it happens, if it happens, whatever. There are far more rewarding things to focus one's interest on.
Also, I think our culture creates a desire for sex that almost turns it into a commodity. Again, perhaps because of a cultural building up of these expectations/feelings of entitlement.



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22 Jan 2013, 11:42 am

Ann2011 wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
many people go a lifetime without sex without any ill effects whatsoever. it seems like the biggest problems arise when there is the desire (common), but added to that.... some people have a sense of entitlement to sex (often this culturally mandated), and if there is a feeling that it is being denied, then that creates all sorts of problems.

the obvious solution is to adjust our cultural expectations so that people no longer believe they are entitled.

I agree that there is a feeling of entitlement to sex in both men's and women's attitudes. And that this is, if not created, at least reinforced and popularized through the media.
I really think there is far too much fussing about sex. When it happens, if it happens, whatever. There are far more rewarding things to focus one's interest on.
Also, I think our culture creates a desire for sex that almost turns it into a commodity. Again, perhaps because of a cultural building up of these expectations/feelings of entitlement.

It's our culture's habit of creating a need based society. Sex is just one of those needs and if you are denied, then you cannot go on. Same with other non essentials. The problem arises when someone wants sex and cannot have sex, not when they don't want sex and are happy that way. It's a lack of happiness in general, so they look for it outside themselves, sex, drugs, friends, entertainment, shopping, eating, drinking, etc. I admit I look for happiness in entertainment and the binge, but not so much sex.



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22 Jan 2013, 12:02 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Sex is just one of those needs and if you are denied, then you cannot go on. Same with other non essentials. The problem arises when someone wants sex and cannot have sex, not when they don't want sex and are happy that way.

This is why it makes sense to me to legalize prostitution. Especially if our society is set up as needs fulfillment economy. Why not? It's going to happen anyway . . . otherwise people will turn to other things that are potentially destructive. And it would be safer for women who choose to participate in it.



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22 Jan 2013, 12:05 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Sex is just one of those needs and if you are denied, then you cannot go on. Same with other non essentials. The problem arises when someone wants sex and cannot have sex, not when they don't want sex and are happy that way.

This is why it makes sense to me to legalize prostitution. Especially if our society is set up as needs fulfillment economy. Why not? It's going to happen anyway . . . otherwise people will turn to other things that are potentially destructive. And it would be safer for women who choose to participate in it.

I agree so long as trafficking and pimping do not go along with it. Everyone needs to be in charge of their own destiny.



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22 Jan 2013, 12:18 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
many people go a lifetime without sex without any ill effects whatsoever. it seems like the biggest problems arise when there is the desire (common), but added to that.... some people have a sense of entitlement to sex (often this culturally mandated), and if there is a feeling that it is being denied, then that creates all sorts of problems.

the obvious solution is to adjust our cultural expectations so that people no longer believe they are entitled.


"Obvious" solution? How do you propose going about adjusting cultural expectations?

Much easier said that done.

Certainly greater acceptance of this belief among women than men. Which leads to market imbalances.