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appletheclown
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03 Apr 2014, 9:09 am

Hopper wrote:
The woman in the 'Radical feminism' video AspieOtaku linked to is having a go at what she calls 'radical feminists'. In the course of doing so, she uses the phrase 'all men are inherently rapists' in a mocking, dismissive way. The idea she's referring to is one found in some feminist discourse, but I don't think it's all that widespread. Certainly it is one readily mocked by society at large, and sometimes used as evidence that 'feminists hate men'.

But it struck me the other day that this is essentially the premise behind victim-blaming, and the 'common sense' idea that women simply have to be careful as to how they dress, where they go, who they're with, how much they drink etc. These warnings can only make sense if one assumes that any man will take advantage of any such situation, that in some - many - instances they simply can't help themselves.

I find it ironic that these two opposing ways of thinking share the same premise, and that those of the latter view all but say 'all men are inherently rapists', but would likely cry outrage and 'man hater!' if you phrased it as such.


I don't blame victims, and would be on the side of the lady every time.
If a woman gets taken advantage of in the way you described, you tell her to be careful regardless.
You wouldn't let someone walk into that situation again would you?

Saying all men are rapists, has nothing to do with women being careful or learning self defense. If I was a woman, I'd be careful too, and ask someone I know to have my back, or have a buddy system. I'm not a woman, but I don't understand why telling women to be careful is seen as victim blaming. That is absurd.


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03 Apr 2014, 12:36 pm

The lady in the video isn't blaming rape victims, she is ranting how some radical feminists take the credit from the actual victims who were raped in order to garner attention. Not to mention when she puts her disclaimer she is in no way support of rape about rape can be pscycologically damaging and that rape is bad rape is wrong can we all agree? now lets all hold hands and run through a meadow. She has also mentioned that there are places where feminism is truly necessary. There are some views where she does support feminists she is not against the movement in any way just the rediculous loud mouths that go apeshit and cry oppression over something simple like a man opening a door for a lady. I dont get why some make a big deal out of something stupid like that but i guess they assume the man is doing it because he thinks shes weak and helpless or just wanting to get in her pants which isn't true at all its just a gesture of kindness that is all. Then theres rediculous crap radicals come up with like once again its not the feminism movement itself its the radicals you know the tumblrtards. http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/ ... s-rape-ok/ like this article where consential coitus is considered rape.


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Last edited by AspieOtaku on 03 Apr 2014, 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sonofghandi
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03 Apr 2014, 12:41 pm

billiscool wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
i'm getting really really really tired of reading "all feminists are this" and "all women are that" threads on this site.


really really really really tired.


Im getting tired of conservative bashing from leftist and feminist.
I get shamed for not supporting feminist.


In your particular case, I think it more "billiscool and his ridiculously narcissistic view of reality" bashing.


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appletheclown
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03 Apr 2014, 1:08 pm

@AspieOtaku
Then why in every other or so thread about feminists do we get the "All men are rapists!", or "Feminists all want all men to die!" bs?

I thought after all these feminist threads, and mra threads, this bs wouldn't come up.


I honestly think if someone like snoopdog actually married a legitimate fem-nazi the world would blow up!


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03 Apr 2014, 1:16 pm

Misandry doesnt exist only Mysogyny does *sarcasm*. Radical feminist idealogy you may find on Tumblr. The only difference is they arent sarcastic and do not believe radical feminists exist.


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starvingartist
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03 Apr 2014, 1:38 pm

appletheclown wrote:
Hopper wrote:
The woman in the 'Radical feminism' video AspieOtaku linked to is having a go at what she calls 'radical feminists'. In the course of doing so, she uses the phrase 'all men are inherently rapists' in a mocking, dismissive way. The idea she's referring to is one found in some feminist discourse, but I don't think it's all that widespread. Certainly it is one readily mocked by society at large, and sometimes used as evidence that 'feminists hate men'.

But it struck me the other day that this is essentially the premise behind victim-blaming, and the 'common sense' idea that women simply have to be careful as to how they dress, where they go, who they're with, how much they drink etc. These warnings can only make sense if one assumes that any man will take advantage of any such situation, that in some - many - instances they simply can't help themselves.

I find it ironic that these two opposing ways of thinking share the same premise, and that those of the latter view all but say 'all men are inherently rapists', but would likely cry outrage and 'man hater!' if you phrased it as such.


I don't blame victims, and would be on the side of the lady every time.
If a woman gets taken advantage of in the way you described, you tell her to be careful regardless.
You wouldn't let someone walk into that situation again would you?

Saying all men are rapists, has nothing to do with women being careful or learning self defense. If I was a woman, I'd be careful too, and ask someone I know to have my back, or have a buddy system. I'm not a woman, but I don't understand why telling women to be careful is seen as victim blaming. That is absurd.


is it absurd instead to ask men: don't rape? because guess what--if men stop raping, women won't have to be careful of being raped. asking women to be careful is putting the responsibility of not being raped on the women, not on the rapists. is this really a difficult concept to grasp? when a woman is raped, NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCES (whether she was walking in a dark alley alone or not, whether she was drinking or not, what she was wearing, etc.) the responsibility is 100% ON THE RAPIST.

not complicated. rape is the fault of rapists, and NO ONE ELSE BUT RAPISTS. full stop.



appletheclown
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03 Apr 2014, 1:59 pm

starvingartist wrote:

is it absurd instead to ask men: don't rape? because guess what--if men stop raping, women won't have to be careful of being raped. asking women to be careful is putting the responsibility of not being raped on the women, not on the rapists. is this really a difficult concept to grasp? when a woman is raped, NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCES (whether she was walking in a dark alley alone or not, whether she was drinking or not, what she was wearing, etc.) the responsibility is 100% ON THE RAPIST.

not complicated. rape is the fault of rapists, and NO ONE ELSE BUT RAPISTS. full stop.


Whoa! Calm down! I never said any of that! I would never get hurt about being told not to rape! I might feel guilty and try to protect her or something!

Do you get mad when your Mom told you to be careful, or don't trip on the ice? I'm saying men say that stuff sometimes out of worry for the victim, not because it is their fault! Why would I say it to someone I know would take it the wrong way?

The thing I said was I didn't like "all men are rapists" comments.

Saying "All men are rapists" is completely different than telling a guy to not rape you! Where does that seem the same to you? I would feel terrible if I scared a lady like that!

The first part of your comment seems like it came out of nowhere. Why? Why would it be absurd? I can't come up with one!

Sorry if I upset you....


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03 Apr 2014, 2:02 pm

appletheclown wrote:
@AspieOtaku
Then why in every other or so thread about feminists do we get the "All men are rapists!", or "Feminists all want all men to die!" bs?

I thought after all these feminist threads, and mra threads, this bs wouldn't come up.


I honestly think if someone like snoopdog actually married a legitimate fem-nazi the world would blow up!


Has anyone actually said here, without qualification or context, that 'all men are rapists' on here? I would hope I was making a point about the peculiar shared notion, not endorsing (or otherwise) the notion itself.

Now, billiscool can certainly be relied on to accuse feminism/feminists of all sorts of unpleasantness, and there is a tendency from certain other members to attribute both women and feminism-at-large with all sorts of aims and desires that, really, are not there.

I hold the door open for everyone, male and female, and have yet to be chastised for it by anyone.

AspieOtaku - I understand you may think them simply wrong, and I do know how thinking someone wrong - especially on the internet - can be a time/thought suck. But otherwise, how do you suppose radical feminists affect your day-to-day life? Are you worried that they may be right?


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starvingartist
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03 Apr 2014, 2:05 pm

appletheclown wrote:
starvingartist wrote:

is it absurd instead to ask men: don't rape? because guess what--if men stop raping, women won't have to be careful of being raped. asking women to be careful is putting the responsibility of not being raped on the women, not on the rapists. is this really a difficult concept to grasp? when a woman is raped, NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCES (whether she was walking in a dark alley alone or not, whether she was drinking or not, what she was wearing, etc.) the responsibility is 100% ON THE RAPIST.

not complicated. rape is the fault of rapists, and NO ONE ELSE BUT RAPISTS. full stop.


Whoa! Calm down! I never said any of that! I would never get hurt about being told not to rape! I might feel guilty and try to protect her or something!

Do you get mad when your Mom told you to be careful, or don't trip on the ice? I'm saying men say that stuff sometimes out of worry for the victim, not because it is their fault! Why would I say it to someone I know would take it the wrong way?

The thing I said was I didn't like "all men are rapists" comments.

Saying "All men are rapists" is completely different than telling a guy to not rape you! Where does that seem the same to you? I would feel terrible if I scared a lady like that!

The first part of your comment seems like it came out of nowhere. Why? Why would it be absurd? I can't come up with one!

Sorry if I upset you....


ice is not alive and sentient, ice can't make you fall on it. if you walk on ice and you fall, it's because you weren't being careful.

if you go out alone at night and get raped, it has nothing to do with how careful you were or weren't. it has to do with the fact that a rapist raped you. telling someone to be careful is indicating they have some sort of agency in getting raped or not raped. whether i get raped or not has nothing to do with how "careful" i am: it has to do with rapists.

if you tell a woman to be careful at night, and she gets raped that night, she will remember what you said and think: "is what happened to me my fault because i wasn't careful enough?"

do you want women to think that? if you don't, stop telling them to be careful. you're not being protective or helpful when you do so.



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03 Apr 2014, 2:07 pm

It's not a bad idea for everyone to be cautious,predators are out there.Rape isn't just a female problem.i think many men don't report being a victim or seek counseling.This happened near where I live.
http://www.ozarksfirst.com/story/d/stor ... q9GvdzK1dQ


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03 Apr 2014, 2:12 pm

appletheclown wrote:
Hopper wrote:
The woman in the 'Radical feminism' video AspieOtaku linked to is having a go at what she calls 'radical feminists'. In the course of doing so, she uses the phrase 'all men are inherently rapists' in a mocking, dismissive way. The idea she's referring to is one found in some feminist discourse, but I don't think it's all that widespread. Certainly it is one readily mocked by society at large, and sometimes used as evidence that 'feminists hate men'.

But it struck me the other day that this is essentially the premise behind victim-blaming, and the 'common sense' idea that women simply have to be careful as to how they dress, where they go, who they're with, how much they drink etc. These warnings can only make sense if one assumes that any man will take advantage of any such situation, that in some - many - instances they simply can't help themselves.

I find it ironic that these two opposing ways of thinking share the same premise, and that those of the latter view all but say 'all men are inherently rapists', but would likely cry outrage and 'man hater!' if you phrased it as such.


I don't blame victims, and would be on the side of the lady every time.
If a woman gets taken advantage of in the way you described, you tell her to be careful regardless.
You wouldn't let someone walk into that situation again would you?

Saying all men are rapists, has nothing to do with women being careful or learning self defense. If I was a woman, I'd be careful too, and ask someone I know to have my back, or have a buddy system. I'm not a woman, but I don't understand why telling women to be careful is seen as victim blaming. That is absurd.


What situation? Think about that for a moment. Think about why you'd be careful if you were a woman - why such a thing presents itself as 'common sense'. As far as I can tell, this kind of thinking comes from the notion that, in some way, rape can somehow be expected. Think about what that notion means. Think about what it says about a society. Think about why it's 'common sense' for women to have to be careful, but insulting to the male identity to have anything that tells men 'don't rape'.


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03 Apr 2014, 2:17 pm

appletheclown wrote:
Hopper wrote:
The woman in the 'Radical feminism' video AspieOtaku linked to is having a go at what she calls 'radical feminists'. In the course of doing so, she uses the phrase 'all men are inherently rapists' in a mocking, dismissive way. The idea she's referring to is one found in some feminist discourse, but I don't think it's all that widespread. Certainly it is one readily mocked by society at large, and sometimes used as evidence that 'feminists hate men'.

But it struck me the other day that this is essentially the premise behind victim-blaming, and the 'common sense' idea that women simply have to be careful as to how they dress, where they go, who they're with, how much they drink etc. These warnings can only make sense if one assumes that any man will take advantage of any such situation, that in some - many - instances they simply can't help themselves.

I find it ironic that these two opposing ways of thinking share the same premise, and that those of the latter view all but say 'all men are inherently rapists', but would likely cry outrage and 'man hater!' if you phrased it as such.


I don't blame victims, and would be on the side of the lady every time.
If a woman gets taken advantage of in the way you described, you tell her to be careful regardless.
You wouldn't let someone walk into that situation again would you?

Saying all men are rapists, has nothing to do with women being careful or learning self defense. If I was a woman, I'd be careful too, and ask someone I know to have my back, or have a buddy system. I'm not a woman, but I don't understand why telling women to be careful is seen as victim blaming. That is absurd.


this is the reason for my comment "is it absurd to ask men: don't rape?"

it IS victim blaming. i am a former victim, telling you not to tell women to be careful because if something happens to them it will make them blame themselves, and it contributes to the perception that when rape happens it could somehow have been prevented by the woman if she was just "more careful". seriously, stop doing it, it doesn't help anyone.



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03 Apr 2014, 2:18 pm

starvingartist wrote:

ice is not alive and sentient, ice can't make you fall on it. if you walk on ice and you fall, it's because you weren't being careful.

if you go out alone at night and get raped, it has nothing to do with how careful you were or weren't. it has to do with the fact that a rapist raped you. telling someone to be careful is indicating they have some sort of agency in getting raped or not raped. whether i get raped or not has nothing to do with how "careful" i am: it has to do with rapists.

if you tell a woman to be careful at night, and she gets raped that night, she will remember what you said and think: "is what happened to me my fault because i wasn't careful enough?"

do you want women to think that? if you don't, stop telling them to be careful. you're not being protective or helpful when you do so.


I'm not the air. I can't magically and instantly suffocate rapists with my spaghetti powers.
Your making it out to seem like a kind farewell is instigating a victim complex.

Do self defense classes and a handgun permit make a lady think she can go Punisher in Flint too?

No lady has taken offense to that comment before. I've gotten a thank you and a smile back from almost every lady I've said that to. I'll do what works for me.


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03 Apr 2014, 2:21 pm

starvingartist wrote:
this is the reason for my comment "is it absurd to ask men: don't rape?"

it IS victim blaming. i am a former victim, telling you not to tell women to be careful because if something happens to them it will make them blame themselves, and it contributes to the perception that when rape happens it could somehow have been prevented by the woman if she was just "more careful". seriously, stop doing it, it doesn't help anyone.


When I blame a victim, i say it to their face.

Sorry that happened. I guess I'll say goodnight then.


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03 Apr 2014, 2:23 pm

And mam, I apologize for bringing back memories. I'll try not to do that anymore then.


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03 Apr 2014, 2:26 pm

to elucidate how victim-blaming works, even unintentional victim-blaming:

not long after my mother remarried, i had a chance to spend some time with one of my new step-brothers and get to know him. we were driving back out to the house in the country after having spent the day in town running errands and hanging out, when i decided to open up to him about my past. one of the things i told him about was how i was raped when i was 18.

his immediate response: "Well, 18 year old girls can be very naïve."

after a moment of shocked silence i said to him: "DO NOT SAY ANYTHING ELSE TO ME RIGHT NOW."

after resisting the urge to push him out of the moving car (i was driving), we got home safely and i went to my room to think (and cry). when i had calmed down, i realised that he wasn't TRYING to tell me that what happened to me was somehow my fault. but that was certainly how it made me feel--so many messages that we get as women say this, it was somehow our fault, we asked for it, we weren't careful enough, we were naive and wreckless and that's why we were raped/assaulted/harassed. i'm really tired of hearing it. i think a lot of other women are too.

so stop bloody saying it. as a woman, i beg you: do not pass these messages on to the women in your life. nothing they do causes them to get raped--rapists cause it.