Hey Christians, how can you believe in this???

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I don't think I am coming across the way I meant, so I will try to provide a clearer picture:

Some Islamic governments are terribly oppressive. Some.
There are many different Islamic governments. Some deny women rights, some do not. Some persecute and imprison those with different beliefs, some do not. Some condone violent terror tactics, some (including Iran) do not.

Some forms of sharia law are terribly oppressive. Some.
There are many different types of sharia law. Some require head coverings, some do not. Some deny women rights, some do not. Some exclude non-Muslims, some do not. Some allow stoning, most do not.

Just as some Christian groups are terribly oppressive. Some.
There are many different types of Christian. Some demand the teaching of Creationism, some do not. Some demand the persecution of the LGBT community, some do not. Some support verbally abusive protests outside of Planned Parenthood, some do not.

And some "Christian values" based state laws in this country are terribly oppressive. Some.
Some allow the firing of an individual for being gay, some do not (which a quick Google search will confirm the legality of; there is no federal law prohibiting this). Some ban gay marriage, some do not. Some give special consideration to minorities, some do not.

I also believe that there is a vast scale in terms of what "Christian values" actually means. It is a very wide scale that is different based on location, sect, media influence, political party, the personal views of a person's pastor, etc.
The same can be said for "Islamic values." The scale is influenced on their nationality, sect, the treatment of their sect by their government, their treatment by other governments, the way Muslims are treated or portrayed in media, etc.

Another point that I do not seem to be making clear is that while I do not condone the actions or beliefs of the more extreme groups, I am fully of the opinion that in most cases, there have been improvements (albeit very tiny improvements in some cases). I know you do not agree, but I believe that Iran has moved forward quite a bit in the last year. I know it isn't happening fast enough to suit your fancy (or mine, for that matter), but change is rarely achieved overnight, and lasting change never is. The US has tried to make instant changes in the Middle East for a few generations now, and it has not worked well for the people we were trying to help a single time. You can't kick someone out of power and just assume that whoever takes over is going to be a step up. You can't demand instant change, because drastic change is a frightening thing, even for people who know for a fact that it would improve their lives.

Just for the record, I do not think our laws are equally flawed, just very flawed in different ways. For example, n a rape case here in Ohio the day before yesterday, the judge reduced the sentence by more than 1/3 (down to 28 years) after stating that the original sentence was disproportionate to the crime, while there are people in federal prison for twice as long for non-violent drug crimes. So yes, it is illegal to be jailed in the US for a man to dress like a woman, but the sodomy laws in Mississippi were only struck down this year, and those in other states are still on the books with fierce opposition to their removal.

I do not consider the number of Muslims that are members of extremist groups to be significant, but I define it from a strictly statistical standpoint (within the population), and not just based on a number. It is like considering a $300,000 shortfall in the federal budget to be significant. 300,000 is a large number if you take it out of its context.

In the US you are "free to practice any religion," but it is difficult to enforce, and the pressures and persecution of those who are not Christian is commonplace. Around half of this country believes that an atheist cannot be a moral person, so how do you think that I (as an atheist) am treated when people find out? It is usually not well. I have been accused of stealing at work when someone lost their purse (which was found later that day), and the basis of their accusation was that I had been seen in the department earlier that day (and it is a mostly Christian group who pressure others to attend their church functions, despite rules to the contrary). I have also been called a communist, a liar, and a satan worshipper with no provocation other than refusal to talk about accepting Jesus Christ as my personal lord and savior. And homosexuality may have equal legal status in the military, but I can tell you that they are not treated equally by any means. Is the US pretty high up in terms of equality? Yes, from a legal perspective (although there is much improvement still needed).

And I do not agree with blanket statements that anywhere in any Islamic country you will experience violence if you speak against their religion. It is entirely dependent on where in that country you do it. Some countries there are few places where it will not be met with hostility, but some countries where you would be hard pressed to find anywhere that violence would ensue. And I also believe that you may suffer abuse in this country for insults against Christianity. It may not be violence, but I have seen destruction of property, severe verbal abuse, threats of violence, and isolation and shunning. Again, it depends on where you are.

This is my entire sentiment on these issues. Our main disagreement is how prevalent extremists are, especially in countries where the most of the government is extremist while the majority of the population is not.

I know you have a friend from Iran, and I will confess that I do not. I did go to college with quite a few Muslims (more than half from Kuwait) and had 2 Muslim roomates for a large part of the time. I currently work with many Muslims (from all over the place) who treat me with more respect than most "Christians" that I work with. I live near several Muslim families (most of them from the same family that fled from Syria years ago, and one older couple that fled from Iraq in the mid 90s). I have seen how they are treated, and in many cases it is downright shameful. I have been insulted for being an "A-RAB," despite the fact that I am incredibly pale and white (I'm guessing based on having a thick beard).

I follow the Middle East very closely, and I keep up to date on the rapidly shifting conditions, allegiances, and power bases. I also follow the current the Muslim situations throughout Africa (especially CAR, Libya, and Nigeria) Asia, (especially in Afghanistan and Pakistan). My conclusion is that in most places, things are improving as the most conservative Muslkims tend to be older and are beginnin to die off and fall out of power, which I think has caused some abject terror in those who have based their entire lives on living out those more extreme views. It is the last ditch effort to survive by a dying beast. I feel the same way about Christian fundamentalism here in the US. The sudden and rapid fighting to get their point of view out and attempts to legislate their own skewed view of Christian morality are a last gasp as the younger generation sees how harmful their exclusive and narcissistic their actions really are.

I will not address everything you said, I am worried about getting upset again, and I don't want to go there again, and I apologize about the "f you", I got very upset because you assumed that I hate Muslims and that I generalised (which I definitely don't, I know very well that the majority of Muslims are not violent, but many are afraid of the ones who are violent, especially since their numbers is significant, and the fact that they are very violent - no one can blame them for that, I would be afraid too - guess who's the most powerful between 50 unarmed and peaceful guys and 1 violent guy with a machine gun). But I assure you that despite the fact that of course the majority of Muslims are not violent, there is enough of them who are either in organisations like Al Quada, or are in power (and/or support the Islamic governments in place) and who agree with Sharia law (and certain customs like honour-killing) for these injustices to continue.

Yes one of my best friends is Iranian, but I know many Iranians not just him. I also actively supported the peaceful revolution of 2009-2010 in Iran, spent a lot of time posting publicly about it, made videos about it (along with my friend), and graphic art as well. I learned how the Iranian system works, in fact I know it very well. We still have our Facebook and youtube accounts, where we continue to support Iranians in general, but also students, who regularly protest against the Iranian Islamic government. I also support (best I can) all the people in general who are victims of injustices, including stoning, flogging, hanging, so-called honour killings, etc, not only in Iran but in many countries in the Middle-East (also other continents, I support Chinese denizens as well, eventho to a lesser degree, because it is difficult to give as much attention to both causes at the same time, also in Russia many human rights activists are in danger, many of them get murdered).

Anyway, briefly, there is still many women (and men) who are victims of terrible injustices, stonings still happen, honour killings still happen (and these are very severe injustices), public flogging, hanging, etc, still happens as well, people getting the death penalty for apostasy still happens, and the public need to be aware of this (as amazing as it may seem, once in a while we succeed in saving a life with the help of public support, like this case I linked in another message). As I mentioned, unfortunately I cannot focus on every country at the same time tho, and apart from the U.S., Iran happens to be my favorite country in the world, it is a beautiful country full of amazing people, so I tend to focus a lot more on Iran than other countries, but there is also many injustices in other countries.

(p.s. here is something I did for Grand Ayatollah Montazeri after his death: https://www.flickr.com/photos/_free_iran_/4202253337/ )

And on a lighter note I will leave you with this, one of my favorite stand-up comic Maz Jobrani (also check Ahmed Ahmed if you don't know him already, he is very funny too!).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozvxQt5UTXU[/youtube]

These are the kind of statements that I believe I must be misinterpreting. Some atrocities are justified by claiming they are sharia, but sharia does not mean this is what happens. It is the difference between making homosexuality illegal and calling it Christian based law and saying that Christian based law means homosexuality is illegal. I think I must just be reading your posts wrong (as I believe you have been doing to mine, which I will agree I have not worded in the best way).



As did I, but only through financial contributions to several activist groups. I think my biggest issue with your posts is usually you seem to speak only of Muslims. Human rights violations are not isolated to any one religion or demographic, which is why I tend to bring the US and Christianity into these discussions, as most who get into them tend to be more familiar with them. It is not that I am intentionally singling them out. When I have these types of discussions with atheists, I tend to use militant atheists as my examples.

Let's just agree that we both have good intentions. But no, homosexuality is not illegal in the U.S.



Which is great and very appreciated, one day it will happen. V!



Note that the people who stoned Du'a Khalil were actually Yazidis, the people who retaliated were Sunni Muslims.

I agree that there is human rights violations in every country, however as I mentioned I am more focused on Iran and the Middle-East in general.

Here is a beautiful video that you might like:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwqdwI20zsM&index=3&list=PLD73F74C3374B3A12[/youtube]

But I think there is a huge difference between not being allowed to get married because you are gay (I already said that I think gay people should be allowed to get married) and actually getting killed for being gay, or between going through a divorce and getting stoned for adultery (under Sharia law divorce is allowed only if the man agrees, if the man doesn't agree then it is not allowed, and it becomes even worse if the woman tries to start a new life with another man, it becomes a case of adultery, for which they can both get stoned), or between being allowed to leave a religion freely and getting the death penalty for leaving a religion (crime of apostasy), etc. A lot of people are also sentenced to flogging, which can be extremely violent, to where the person can die (even when they were not actually sentenced to death). The human rights violations under Sharia law are very severe and numerous, it is sad but true. Also as I mentioned women are considered 2nd class citizens under Sharia law, there is no 2 ways about it, it is part of Sharia law (the laws about testimonies and inheritances for example). Thankfully, despite an Islamic government, some countries have abolished stoning, however despite this it still happens in some areas of many of these countries, for example in areas controlled by the Taliban (but also other areas). Another thing that is very disheartening about stoning, apart from the suffering of the person getting stoned, and the fact that it is barbaric, is that many people participate, sometimes a whole community, especially the men.

Acknowledging that most Muslims are peaceful shouldn't be a reason to ignore the violence of extremist groups and organisations, and of many Islamic governments (I think we at least agree that some are worse than others), it really doesn't help anyone (doing so only helps extremists and fundamentalists, not peaceful Muslims), especially not the people who are presently in prison and in danger of getting stoned (or killed in other ways) for reasons like adultery, or killed in other ways for different other reasons, apostasy being one of them. In fact peaceful Muslims need your help against the violent ones, they experience this violence first hand.

I'm sorry if I don't speak about fundamentalist Christians as much as you would like (I intentionally use the word "fundamentalist" to mark the difference between most Christians and "fundamentalist" ones, because my brother and sister are both Christians, and I also know other Christians, but I don't personally know any fundamentalists, nor any Christians who would be violent in the name of religion - and if there is some of them who are, then they automatically are not following Jesus' teachings), but personally first of all I don't actually know any of these (stupid fundamentalist) people, also the U.S. is a secular and democratic country, but was built upon Christian values, so the fact that some of these values still remain is to be expected to the least (just like you would expect some Muslim values to remain in a country where there is a majority of Muslims, even if the country became secular), but also I like Christian values in general (apart from gay people not being allowed to get married, but I assure you that it is the same under Sharia law, and sometimes much worse - but again I repeat: I agree that gay people should be allowed to get married).

I would like to stop this discussion for the time being (of course feel free to continue with others tho), because unfortunately we seem to misunderstand each other quite often, and I really don't want to get upset again. But I respect your opinion and I understand that your intentions are good.

P.S. Here is a little something about Shadi Sadr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadi_Sadr

And something about Stoning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning

I also suggest visiting http://violenceisnotourculture.org/ (there is also many other websites - like stophonourkillings.com - , but some of them have been hacked and taken down by certain groups)