Cat-calling is harmless flattery...

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You must live in a friendly neighbourhood then. Where I live, most people are suspicious of any strangers that try to talk to them, especially when minding your own business on the street.

There are a lot of issues with what you write here.
One of them is that what you see as arrogance is likely individuals being protective or reactive to things that have already happened to them. Only, you don't see that- you see what may or may not be a harmless attempt at engagement and an "unnecessary" response.

Most women have been subject to harassment, groping, insults based on their body or perceived gender, physical assault of a sexual nature or not, domestic abuse, manipulation. Men are subject to these things as well, but it is not as pervasive and is not nearly as often connected distinctly to the mere perception of their gender. So, when a guy holds a door out for me at this point, I am often prepared to stand as far away from them as possible in many situations. But i'm supposed to smile and say "thanks" because if I don't, I'm a b*tch. But you don't know that a guy grabbed my *ss holding a door for me one time. You don't know that men have crowded me against walls in public unnecessarily and it's scary. [You also don't know that worse things have happened and it's not that uncommon]

It has nothing to do with anything but the fact that women often run into this- and no, it's not the fault of every other person in the world. What you might have to do with the issue though, Venger, is that you choose to perceive this learned behavior of protection and withdrawal as indicative of something like arrogance instead of considering it could be indicative of a larger problem.

To suggest that a woman give a fresh chance to every single new person she encounter is to suggest that, from her perspective, she shrug off this constant interaction and still open herself up to it anyway. So, to make it more personal?

i do get stared at and called baby and occasionally get a hand on my butt and get treated very differently pretty much because BOOBS. I dont think that because someone says hi, it's catcalling. I think that if i am walking around engaged in a conversation, it's intrusive for someone to assume I want them butting in. It's not catcalling, but it contributes to the problem where individuals [in my experience more often men, but also women sometimes] think because they are interested, it gives them a right to intrude, no matter what.

It doesn't.
"this is my dancing space, this is your dancing space"

if i am not looking around and engaging with my environment, that is not an invitation for others to interrupt my conversation and one-on-one engagement. I don't care what priority you think you take over my choice of direction or volition. So, in my mind, a hi in that situation sucks. It's not catcalling, but still part of the problem.

And if someone blocks my path with the "hi"? THAT is a catcall. yes.

Haha, all depends on who is doing the cat calling. Sexy, hot, single, attractive. Yeah go ahead and cat call to your heart's content, honey.

Unattractive, married, middle aged, father to kids, unemployed,...don't bother because it's going to be seen as annoying.

I think there are a lot of personal definitions of cat calling.
Some of the difficulties I've been seeing in this discussion might be [not entirely certain] that there is an ongoing assumption that if PersonA considers A definition of cat calling, if they encounter that then PersonA will immediately respond to that event with the greatest possible negative action they could.

So, I'm not sure that is true.

I just wrote a post with the example that saying "hi" directly to me when I am not engaging in the environment is not a cat-call, but it's intrusive and maybe contributes to a greate problem. However, if someone says "hi" and blocks my path in someway, that's a cat-call.

But, to be clear? It's not that given that situation I then scream bloody murder. For myself, I don't think a lot of these issues are perfectly clear. There is not a solid line for every situation. And there are a lot of ways that we treate each other like crap and bring each other down- having to do with gender, age, disability/ability, race, socioeconomic status, I don't know, you name it. But I can't believe that we are all always aware of how we are making others feel or what we are doing. i think some people are very very aware of what they are doing and their intentions are clear.

For some people- they really think it is all in good fun. And that's why we have these discussions. It doesn't give me free reign to flip out and scream in someone's face if they say "hi" and i just don't like it. it means that I let someone know i don't like how they are treating me. And i let them know why. And i do my best to treat them with the respect I am asking them to treat me with.

Depending on the level of threat I feel is what dictates my response, though. I'm not going to take a moment to be enlightening to someone who is following me down the street and saying something sexually threatening. I mean, there is explicit intention there.




Actually it's not pleasant either way but the ones who seem to "have it all together" and know it make me feel the most threatened. In my personal experience, though not across the board, those tend to be the worst and most volatile situations.

https://www.census.gov/compendia/statab ... 2s0313.pdf

https://www.census.gov/compendia/statab ... 2s0311.pdf

The statistics speak for themselves. If you're black and reading this, I'm afraid to tell you that you're statistically more likely to be murdered than you would be if you were white. As you can see here, http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html there are far more white people in the U.S. that there are black people and yet about as many black people are murdered per year as white people. In fact, some of these reports even say that more black people are killed per year than white people. It's an unfortunate reality that makes a statement about our society.

As you can also see from the same links, about 50.8% of the U.S. population is female. However, several times more men are killed annually than women. This also makes a statement about our society. I'd tell you to look at the numbers for yourselves, but no matter what I say at this point you're just going to refuse to read the statistics and instead attack me for pointing them out. Bring on the hate.

...we are talking about cat calling, I'm not clear on what any of your statistics has to do with that. If you want I could attack your argument, but it wouldn't make sense. It's not really an argument so much as confusing and irrelevant additions to a conversation regarding cat calling?

I've been hollered at by guys on the street back when we lived in the city. Depending on my mood I either smiled and waved, ignored them, or flipped them off and called them a twatwaffle. I've also holldered at guys on the street when I was somewhere with other girls and we were doing that to make fun of how men did it to us.

I never felt "harassed" or "in fear of being raped" or "mentally and emotionally assaulted" or "triggered" by some dude who whistles or yelled "shake that thang baby!" at me. It's actually nothing. Today's overblown feminists don't have anything to fight against like the feminists of my mother's generation so they find something. They see a guy yelling at a girl walking down the street as just as bad, just as wrong, and just as unfair as refusing to hire a woman for a management job or telling married women that they have to choose between a career and a family, etc. They weren't around for the actual struggle that got us equal rights so they didn't get a chance to do anything. They want to feel they are contributing to the feminist cause so they just go out and find some silly ass s**t to b***h about and insist that it's degrading to women. It's about them and what they want, not even really about the actual act. If no guys ever hollered at girls walking down the street, they would find something else just as stupid to harp on.

I'm not talking about actual feminists who limit their focus to actual causes that hurt women, I'm talking about the ones that see themselves as a hairy pitted Xena. Not actual feminists.

There are likely women who simply have a problem with cat-calling because they feel it's 'the principle of the matter'. I have not talked with a lot of them, myself and I'm not one of them. I don't happen to identify as a feminist either, but that's an interesting point of view you have shared.

I've had men yell things at me many time while jogging in this park next to a busy street. One of them was working on the roof of this commercial property being construction and he made quite an effort to yell from that roof, it was across a busy street and small distance from the park. I have also heard others getting yelled at, too, at this same place. I find it's best to just ignore when this happens and never turn and look when they yell. It's best to pretend like they never yelled since they are strangers and all. Their intentions are not clear.

It has happened so many times I have lost count. I don't consider it demeaning so much as annoying and kind of scary since I don't know who they are or what they are going to do, if they are just going to yell and leave it at that or something else, like get out of their car and come over to where I am.

that.

Yes, it turns out people are people aren't very nice. They pursue their personal goals without caring about how their actions might negatively impact others. This is a realization I have made in adulthood. But you can't fixate on it because people aren't going to change.

mmm... no. But it's part of the discussion, still a part of the problem and I include it in the discussion because it's relavent. I wouldn't encourage anyone to fixate on it, no. We should all take a moment to consider that the things we discuss in this little itty bit of cyber space likely don't represent the whole of our being or the entirety of our day-to-day.

It's a thin slice of what a person thinks and feels, and what they are choosing to expose at that.

I don't cat-call people. I find it threatening...especially when it's done in a group. It's usually an act (or acts) of aggression, really.

I don't see too much wrong, though, with a guy telling a woman that she's pretty, especially when a decent conversation is going on. Correspondingly, the woman can tell the guy that he's attractive, too.

I get that you consider it part of the problem, but in the context of forum for people with social deficits, it is hard to understand. I think it is probably more enjoyable to be a person who people want to talk to instead of a person who nobody wants to talk to. So in a forum that seems to have a decent number of frustrated, lonely people who have never had or never will be in relationships, you seem to be complaining about a situation that many people would love to experience.

Also, If you have a problem with people who do not read social cues well, I'm sorry that situations when you have to deal with them "suck", but it also sucks when you want to talk to someone but can't figure out how to do it in a way that is acceptable to neurotypicals or whoever you are talking to. I feel like you are assuming that everyone should be able to read your body language and stay away from you when you give off a certain vibe, but maybe your social observation skills are superior to the skills of people you find so intrusive.

No. You are making a lot of assumptions about ME here, yet giving me crap for supposedly making assumptions about the people here. I am not making assumptions about the people here. I am making assumptions about the every day person. The every day person who has average social skills.

Contrary to what you may think? I don't read people well. Most women do not like me. I piss people off. A lot of people like to talk to me, and no I don't have problems going on dates- but, and I'm sure you read my last post so you are drawing LOTS AND LOTS OF CONCLUSIONS FROM THAT you will also note that there is one person who I have mostly dated successfully for the last decade. That person is also autistic.

I have learned a bunch of tricks to help me get by. You want to actually figure out how I REALLY function in society instead of trying to make it like i have no idea what it's like to not fit in, to feel awkward all the time, to feel alienated and not understand if someone just made a joke and if they did are you supposed to laugh at them or turn and laugh at the thing they are looking at or maybe they are laughing at your expense or maybe it's not a joke? maybe ask. Maybe pay attention to why I'm here. Check out my blog. OR ANYTHING I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT BEING AUTISTIC.

And oh, i'm not supposed to actually tell people they are in my space because then I'm a b*tch. And if I'm nice, then I lead people on right? And if i LET people buy me drinks, it's OBVIOUSLY a guarantee that I want them to sleep with me and I will clearly jump in their car to do so, and if I don't let them i have no interest in talking to anyone.

I'm also afraid of people a LOT because of all of these things. I don't like people intruding on my space, and I don't like that people assume it's ok to lay down rules about when we are going to interact but I have no say in it.

My point about the other post was that, despite the fact that I am not 'typically hot', I still manage to date and be percieved as attractive because of my interactions and how I present myself WHEN I AM COMFORTABLE.

People randomly hitting on me, groping me, pushing me against walls has nothing to do with how I present myself. It has to do with the fact that I have boobs and I can't do anything about that. I don't think anyone here wants their ass grabbed randomly or wants to be harrassed or have to walk through the afterwork gauntlet- which is what you are suggesting- and that is FLAT OUT WRONG.

So, while I appreciate your attempt at ingenuity, taking my other post COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT and trying to work an angle with it, you actually know so little about me it is positively shameful.

Supergreat.

And this:
"Yes, it turns out people are people aren't very nice. They pursue their personal goals without caring about how their actions might negatively impact others. "

Is perfectly appropriate for what you just did, by the way.