New Restrictions on Abortion Have Real World Consequences

Post Reply New Topic

As many times as you keep side-stepping it.

Don't worry, I'm not expecting anything new or exciting coming from your end beyond more ridiculous comparisons to stolen car batteries.

That is astonishing to me. I'm going to have to concede this part of the argument to you. Alas with such differing moral viewpoints I don't think there can be much useful discussion between us on the subject of abortion.



It needn't produce the same outcome, but it must applied equally in all relevant situations. To your credit, you do seem to apply harm reduction in this way, so it appears to be a true moral principle.



In limited scenarios they do, I don't think many would take it as far as you take it, most wouldn't even apply it to theft, let alone terrorism. But who knows, I was wrong about you, perhaps quite a few others share the same viewpoint.



Hehe, was that a hypothetical about retrieving your stolen car battery which had been hooked up to a life support machine or something along those lines? I don't recall if you said you would disconnect it or not.

At This Point, i Wonder A Couple of Things,

One is personal, and You surely don't have to reply to it.

Have You Ever Been in A Romantic Relationship With Another Human Being?

Secondly, Do You Understand That Morals Are Cultural Constructs, Generally

Assessed As What Culture As Group Think Determines is the Right or Wrong Thing to Do?

In Other Words, Again, Morals Change Depending on the Culture at Hand And What The Culture Comes

to Believe; As Morality Is A Human Abstract Construct This Way; And Yes Some Folks, in the U.S., About

Half the Population Now Believe Abortion Is Immoral; While the Half And A Bit Less Believe it is NOT Immoral;

Yet Again, This Is Highly Influenced By Church Influence That Is Surely Not Moral At Core Through Abrahamic

Religions That Ridiculously Suggest That An All Loving, Forgiving, Peaceful God Turns Around And Tortures Humans

Making Mistakes, Forever, Knowing That is Gonna Happen in Advance; Yes That Ridiculous Story About Loving Torture
is Considered

Moral As Any

Hannibal

The Cannibal

Horror Story and

More As In this Case Love

of Eating the Human Becomes

Torture forever Instead; Do You

Understand That Your View of Morality

Is Yours And Not Required for anyone else to Hold;

If Not, You Don't Understand Morality in the First Place;

It's Ever Changing And Truly Insane As Close to Half the World

Believes A God Of Morality Is Both All Forgiving, Loving; And Torturing too...

Yet Perhaps that is Why

'They' Don't Mind Women

Suffering; Yet Perhaps That

Is Why They Don't Mind in Some

Areas of Belief in Abrahamic Religions

Still Selling Women Into Institutionalized Virginal

Rape on First Marriage Date Night Sold As 'Cattle' For Breed;

Yes, Perhaps that's why it took Until Last Century for Women

To Vote Here; And Yes, No Doubt it is still Used to Justify Slavery

That Way Still Now in Mastering Reproductive Control For Women;

Yawn, Things Change; Here, Traditional Religion Is going Away, Being

Replaced By Individual Endeavors That Are Becoming Instead, "Opiates

of the Masses" for those who otherwise live in Socio-Economic Scarcities...

Meanwhile, This is again is an Interesting Topic for Discussion; Yet as far as

What is Actually Happening Here as Far As Debate Goes on A Relative Morality

Issue as Divided As Abortion is today; Yes, 'Mental Moral Masturbation' As 'i am Right

And You Are

Wrong'

And 'There

Is No Way for

You to Prove i am Wrong';

As Surely You Are Mentally

Masturbating The Same Way For

Only Your Pleasure; As Most everyone

Else Sees Your Argument As quite Frankly Ridiculous here...

True, it would get much more Mileage in Church Environments; Yet

Alas this This is The Wrong Planet...

Purr...

Scratch,

Claw, Bite;

This Overall

"Wrong Planet"

IS A
Place

For 'Cats'
Who Will Not

Be 'Herded'; Nope,

Not 'Dogs', HAha,

Overall At Least;

As Ya Ain't Gonna
Convince Anyone Here to Follow

Your Individual 'Pack Way of Think'

That Your 'Moral Argument' is Not Ridiculous

Except For 'Remnants' of the 'Church Crowd' at Hand...

i Study Humanity as A Hobby, i Listened to a Third Week

Installment of the Local Priest Facebook Streaming His Assessment on "Revelation"

to a CAPTIVE AUDIENCE; Saying it was A Book of Hope, Except for those Who Didn't Agree

with His Interpretation of the Rather 'Loosely Knit Free Verse Poetry' Entailed Within,

ARE

Gonna

Go to

Hell and

Never Get Out

Forever Tortured;

That's Pure Insanity Still;

Yet in those Doors An All

Loving God, All Forgiving too,

Tortures His Creations Pre-Ordained

As A Bloody Sky Daddy Psychopath Forever;

Funny How Morality Drips Blood Forever too;

Again, Putting the Fictional Character Hannibal

The Cannibal to Shame In the Halls of Torturing Humans forevermore...

The Thing That's Predictable as 'Hell' in General, if You Weren't Christian, Likely

You Wouldn't Hold the View That Woman Should Suffer Lifelong for the Unborn And

An Loving

Forgiving

God

Morally

Tortures Folks Forever too...

Sorry my Friend, it's Hard to take You Serious...

Nothing Personal, You Are Very Civil, Yet Your Opinions

On Morality, Not Unlike the Opinions of a Priest And the

Church, Will Never ever be Moral to me; And Many Others too

As Our Morals Are Simply Differently Colored by Our Experiences too...

Anyway, i Do Thank You For Your Honesty, Knowing Full Well Here You are

'the odd man out'...

In the

Church

Environment

Obviously Well

Received No Matter

What Argument You

Make Against Abortion

as it is the 'Wine And The

Bread'; Yes, the Bloody Wine

And Bread of the Church at Hand;

Yet Again Directed By the All Loving

Forgiving Ruler THAT Tortures ITS Subjects

Who Make Mistakes Forever; Go Figure, my FRiEnD....

How Darkness Breeds 'Children', in 'The Name Of Love' THiS Way...

Obviously,

i Don't

Expect

You to
Figure it out

And That's Okay too...

As You Simply Are Not
Viewing A Moral UniVerse the Same way...

My Morals Have Changed Quite A Bit Over

61 Years; It's Common, Humans Do Both Evolve

And Devolve This Way Morally, Depending on Individual Experiences and Views...

---

Yes.



Yes, I do understand this in the basic sense. What I don't understand is why you are bringing it up here. Morality varies from culture to culture ok so...?

Morality isn't real?
Nothing is moral?
Everything is moral to someone?
Morality cannot be ascertained or decided through argument?

I'm afraid I just don't understand what the larger point is.



I accept the existence of people who disagree with me, or is this about imposing morals on others?



Or maybe I just believe in what I am saying as much as you believe in what you are saying. Slavery came to an end in the UK and later the Empire through arguments about the humanity of those enslaved. Was that all just a bit of mental masturbation?



Not everyone. I even saw some support on page 1.



Interestingly, I came to the pro-life side while I was still an atheist.



It's ok to disagree. Why apologise for holding a different opinion?



Ah, it's nice to be appreciated, at least in a small way.

^^^

---

Thanks Again For Your Honesty;

And Honestly Per This Topic on Abortion

And Real World Consequences, It Is Impossible

To Separate The Politics of Church From The Issue At Hand;

in my Case, A 'Golden

Rule includes A

Do Least

Harm Clause

For All of Nature

or for me it is Close to

Useless as every Human

Experiences the World Differently;

And Without A Good Faith Effort of Cognitive

Empathy per Doing Our Best to Walk in The Shoes

Of Others in Compassion; It really Isn't the Golden, Silver or Bronze Rule;

in Fact it has Truly No place in the 'Olympics of Love' As A Great Art of Loving

Life in Practice Across the Lifespan; to Be Clear, i am only Speaking to my Morality

Here And Of Course Outside of the Christian And Muslim Religions It is more Wide

Spread to Take More of the Dark and Light into Account of Existential Intelligences Rather

Than Anthropomorphizing It into Symbols of Devil And Demon And God And Angel As Such...

Back to the Reality of Nature;

Your Statement And

Yes, Intellectually Honest

Statement That You Really

Can't Say what Decision You Would

Make as A Woman Raped By Father, Other

Close Family Relative or Family Friend Or Lover

And Husband too As Commonly This is the Greatest

Avenue Where Rape Comes From; the Familiar Instead of Strange

Is Telling Indeed As You Are Coming From An Abstract Construct Justification

Of Morality that is not Actually

Grounded in Flesh and Blood

Reality As You Admit

It Can't Be As

You Will Never Be

Put in that Position in this

Lifetime as A Dude Instead of A Woman;

if You Have Ever Been Physically Bullied

in Your Life, You Understand What it Means to

Be Prey at the Hands of Predator; Indeed, i Reached Close
to Mature Height In Middle School And Although Mercilessly

Bullied Verbally, People Are Rather Inhibited Usually From Attacking

Someone Who is a Head Taller than they are; So i never Experienced Physical Abuse

That Way; The Way it is for me in A Dark Parking Lot or City Street At 2 AM Walking

Tall Alone And Carrying Myself As Any Martial Arts Specialist Will Do in Fearless Way

of Controlling Every Body Part in Ease Friends with Gravity; There is About A 1 percent Chance

Anyone is Gonna Pursue a Physical Confrontation With me As Long as i Maintain may Cool...

True at 242 Pounds of up to 1520 Pounds of Martial Arts Leg Pressing Strength; it's a Much

Different Experience than

On A Dark City Street

At 2 AM, As A Woman

Half my Size With A Vagina

That By Itself Makes Her Potential

Prey Wherever She May Go alone on

A Dark City Street At Night; And Sadly

Even More So With Family, Friends, Lovers

And Husbands too As That is the Source of Most

Rape that 1 Out of 4 Females Experience in a Lifetime

Now in Some Way of Sexual Predation; If You Could Really

Put Your Self in those Shoes, Indeed Your Point of View Could

Be Much Different; to Your Credit Your More Evolved View on Heaven

And Hell Real on Earth As An Experience Within Rather Than Generated

As Punishment By A God Entity For Qualified Mistakes is Much More Evolved

in What i See As Rational Morality and Faith than What i Hear From the Very

Rigid Thinking Fundamentalist Priest at the Church i Visit, Only Believing Heaven and Hell
is After Death By Standard Fundamentalist Rigid Ways of Group Think; the More Charismatic

Junior Catholic Priest there in the Same Week, Teaches The Kingdom of Heaven Is to Be made Here Now

And No Other Place Yet now continuing Now per Luke 17:21, Starting From Love Within And Of Course

Consuming Others With Least Harm as One will Find that By Metaphor in the New Testament too; if one Looks Deep

Enough for it and Interprets it that way; The Least Harm Clause is Common Outside of Fundamentalist Circles;

It appears to me that Your Morality is Evolving From my Perspective As A Sign of Morality is Always Kindness

And Compassion For Friend And So-Called Foe the Same; As i noticed, hehe, i failed to Center the Art of

What i Do; As You Provided That Coding Gift Out of the Humanity of Who You Are; That Was one of the

Few Experiences on this Site That Seemed Human to me; it is much different in India and that's for

Sure; i was Just curious How Evolving Your Morality is from the Perspective of

Christianity As Again that is Core to this Issue of Restrictions on Abortion;

i guess it all Depends in some ways at least, for those Who

Find it Easier To 'See' What it Feels

Like to Be Prey in Life;

It's Surely amazing

Never to Feel that way;

And As Tall as i Was and

As Thin as i was in Middle School Close to 6 Feet

Tall and 120 Pounds; Then Height was probably

All the Difference for me to Find What Being
Prey Really Felt Like; Of Course There was still

That Potential Enough Where i surely wasn't

As Comfortable Strolling Through a Dark

Parking Lot At a Huge Bustling Dancing Bar at 2 AM...

So Much Privilege; So Much Privilege Both Earned And Born With too;

So Many Struggles too; And Enough to Feel For Others Who Are Not Like me..

Much of this is a Matter of Experience; And Surely i feel like i am a Fortunate one

to indeed

Walk

in Many

Shoes in

6.1 Decades...

In Short Thanks...

The Key to Change

Is Taking the Effort

To Understand Other Folks;

Both Those We Agree With

And Even More So For Those We Do Not...

Of Course That takes a lot of Time and Effort...

Really Hard to Do in 'Candy Crush Work Life These Days'...

Where Grades, And Money Are no Factor, Competition Naturally Fades And Cooperation Naturally Grows

As Abundance Does Breed Cooperation Over Competition Naturally So For Those Who Already Have it all

Both Material

Emotional;

Spiritual

And Physical Too Complete;

Understanding This Lends

Plenty of Room For Real Love And Forgiveness

For Most Every Variance of Life Experience; Again a Practice, A Work of Life Art...

The Way You Described Hell, Interestingly, is the Way the Modern 'Fulton Sheen'

Head YouTube PR Catholic 'Bishop Barron' Describes it too; Also Clarifying That Other

Religions May Find Their Way to Heaven With The Same Universal Spirit of Love Within,

Regardless of Forms of Names, Per Love is Real, A Second Vatican Council Last Century Made that clear...

Still Though

Fundamentalist

Catholic Priests

Act Like it Never Happened...

Particularly in Places Where Trump Still Rules, In Part at Least,

Probably Just to Survive Like Politicians as they wanna stay in Power...

As of Course Fear Is the Glue that Keeps a lot of Folks Filling Up the

Offering Basket, And Pay For Pastors, and Priests too; Highly Un-Evolved

Spiritually; Yet Still Nature of Un-Evolving Souls ACross A Lifetime Sadly So True... too...

---

It's classist as well. Middle class people could easily take leave and travel interstate. Poorer people might not have the time or the leave for such a trip.

Not pre-born but post birth we're really expected to support the child.

Off-topic for this thread, but I would be interested to hear how you became Christian. Could you please start a new thread on this topic, if you are willing to share this with us?

No, we aren't. There is no universal healthcare, or affordable daycare options

And no one expects the parents to surrender their organs for the good of the child.

You can't solve socio-economic problems by creating a group of "disposables" and then abusing them.

Whether that's Negro slave labour, or killing Armenians, or Germany blaming all of their problems on Jews and positing genocide as the solution.

Or whether it's dehumanising and killing foetuses.

And what XFG complains about, the treating of born children as disposable or less worthy.
The lack of healthcare for mothers who have delivered children.

Yes, these are bad things, but if you agree they are bad things, why are you arguing to increase the reach of that sick attitude you agree is bad to the unborn?

It would be better to argue for proper social welfare and proper healthcare than fight to extend the disposability shown to those who are born poor, to the unborn as well.

Seems to me that having men making rules about abortion is a bit like if women were to be making decisions over whether or not men are allowed vasectomies.
After all, we don't want to deny any potential human the right to life, do we?
So why should the individual men be allowed any say in the matter?

There's a difference between being legally required to do something and being expected to.

Exactly. Which is why legally requiring women to donate their bodies to fetuses is nonsense.

@ aghogday I think I understand your argument in principle. Women do indeed have different lived experiences and my morality - you call it abstract and I don't know about that but I might accept the description of "absolute" - even potentially to a fault - at least contra what you are saying. Right and wrong must apply to all those capable of making moral choices. There is always someone stronger and weaker than yourself: a man who bullies women is not excused his actions because he himself was bullied by stronger men. A woman does not earn a free pass to commit dark deeds - particularly killing someone weaker than her, because she was mistreated, at least not in my book.

@ Mona Pereth, I don't think it deserves its own thread, nor do I believe most are particularly interested. I'll pm you later if you want.

---

SMiLes my FRiEnD, THere are More And Less Open Minded Folks in Life; Typically, the More Closed Minded
Folks Are More Conservative; Those Who Are More Open to the Nuances of Life More Liberally Bring Greater Art Than
More Restricting Order, Seeing There Are Very Few 'Moral Absolutes' in Life And even Those May Be Altered And

Become The Opposite of 'Moral' in Reality As Abstract Constructed Moral Absolutes That Are

Easy to See As 'Insane' For Those Who See Out of the Group Think of Insanity my FRiEnD

Where "Absolute Morality"

Is Oxymoron For Those

Who See through the

Human Constructed

Cultural Morality of Insanity...

And To Be Clear i am Using 'Insanity"

Here as a Metaphor For What is Against The

Nature of Living And Surviving; And Even Thriving Well Now in Balance.

For Instance, The Catholic Church Holds Abortion As Murder and Homosexuality

Behavior in Disordered Way of Being; And Additionally, All Stuff Associated With

Anything Less than Binary Gender; Where Science Shows That is Complete And

Utter Bull Cr8p; Science Reflecting Nature Empirically So Out of the Realm of

Abstract Constructed Illusory Moral Absolutes Humans Create to Bond and Bind

Over, In Often Political/Religious Ways to Achieve Control And Subjugation Over Others for

Material Gains And Power And Status too; And Of Course That Changes Over Seasons Depending

On What Works Best to Subjugate And Control Others for Selfish Gains; Or For Just Plain Human Ignorance.

'CuLTuRaL Morality' Now

Is the Color of the

Day It Changes With

The Seasons and The Weather;

Except with Humans It doesn't

Have to make a bit of God Damn Sense...

Again Like Worshipping After Death More Than Life...

Now that's Insane Baby; Even More Insane than Valuing

Non-Breathing Life Over Breathing Life Now; Neither the

Traditional Muslim Way of Viewing The Unborn in the Early

Stages of Pregnancy or The Traditional Way of Early Christianity

Valued Non-Breathing Life Over Breathing Life now, Where A Miscarriage

Doesn't Warrant A Funeral; And The Loss of A Pregnancy only Makes A Fine;

Where Adultery Makes a Stoning And Dead, Still In Muslim Countries Now;

It's Worth Noting That

We Are Basically the

Same Classically Evolved

Humans At Nature of Who

We Were Tens of Thousands of Years ago...

The Reason Why at 61 i am Literally As Strong

As an Orangutan As True They Don't Leg Press Much more

Than 1520 Pounds even Young, hehe; And The Reason Why

Culture Will Make Humans Into Couch Potatoes Like 10-Year

Old Cats Who Can't Cat Make it Up to the Litter Box From a Life of Inactivity;

In Short,

CuLTuRE

Is the Curse and

Gift; Choose Wisely;

The Answers Are Often

Best Found Within; My Point

Here is CuLTuRE Is Relative

And Most All the Morals Associated With

CuLTuRE That Change With the Winds of Human

Imagination And Creativity; For Power and Control

And For Love And Compassion too; Just Depends on

Who is In Charge; And What Turns Folks On and Off to Live...

Love And Compassion More Often Sees The Fact that Life is Messy;

And This Is Why Open Minded Folks in General Are More Compassionate...

It's all a Work of Art And Science; Sail Boats Need Anchors in Storms For Safe Harbors

And Sailboats Need Sails or They Frigging Rot in Harbors Like a 'Domesticated Cat'...

It's Worth

Noting

That Wild

Wolves Are Much

Nicer Together Free

Than Domesticated

Wolves Who Are Provided

All They Can Eat Penned Up Sheep...

"Penned Up Sheep" in Human Terms

What Happens When Folks Become THeiR

Tools Like Books More Than Free And Wild Nature...

Human CuLTuRE is the Most Dangerous Pandemic

For the Potential of Both Heaven And HeLL ON EartH...

It's A Work of Art And Science; A Balancing Act at Best...

Smiles my FRiEnD, You are a 'Rules Kinda Dude' And Now

i Am A 'SailS On A Naked Wing Kinda Dude'; Thing is i am

So Open Minded That i used to BE A 'Rules Kinda Dude' too...

Hehe, Yes Depending on the Issue; Yes, Still That Now True too;

That's

Truly

Unusual

As i See the

Value in How You

See Life too; We Do

Need Rules; We Do Need Freedom;

We Do Need Safety; Yet Without Colors

of Life to Sail with Wings; it will Get Pretty Dam Bland And Boring...

i Understand, At least in Part, Why You Are Seeing This Differently than me...

What this Means is Very Rarely Do i Get Upset And Get Myself Out of Balance...

You keep Your Cool too; And That is A Bit Unusual In this place Where Rarely Folks do...

As A Huge Part of Autism Spectrum Difficulties are Emotional And Sensory 'Faculties' Out of Balance...

i guess what it boils down too; i Won't expect You to View Life As i Do; And i Won't Expect You to Do Life as i Do...

Again the

'Immature'

Golden

Rule

Needs Revision;

Rarely Are Aphorisms
Actually Literally True...

Yet on the Other Hand,

Without Rules We Fall/Fail too...

Hmm... 80 Percent of the Animal

Kingdom Assessed Are Rovers; And

20 Percent Are Assessed As Sitters;

As Humans Are Less Censored CuLTuRaLLY

Expect For Life to Become More Liberally Ruled my FRiEnD;

Which Also Means More Compassion For More Views of Life to Be Free...

In Other Words; Don't Want An Abortion, Don't Get an Abortion; Don't

Wanna Be Homosexual, Still Become a Priest; Hmm.. Yeah, Reality Still Now...

As LonG As I Will

Be Free And As

Long As this

Peace

Lasts i

Will i Do

Free Authentically
me WiTH SMiLes...

It's Like the Catholic

Church; Up to 58 Percent

of Priests Studied Within

The Church Are Afraid to

Even Do Who They Are;

That's Insanity too;

That's Insanity too;

Yes That's

Religious Political Philosophy Insanity True..

It's Damn Sure Not Natural Propensity And Science Agrees...

'Faux Moral CuLTuRaL Absolutes' Are A Great Falling/

Failing Source of Human Misery And Overall Discontent...

Like A Priest At A Church Who Thou Doth Protests too Much Who 'Has' to make

Jokes About Skipping Down The Aisle When He Wears Pink Robes To Rule...

Just Like When One of my Relative's Gay Friends Spotted Him At A Gay Bar...

It's Okay

Just as

Long

As He Doesn't

Do Who He is...

That's Insanity, Just Moral

Absolute 'Insanity' Like Making A Woman

Who Is Not Wanting to Be A Mother

Carry A Mistake She made to Misery

And Suffering More For Her at least;

The Sanctity of Her Breathing Life...

And Again Easier to Say No If We Don't Walk in 'Her' Shoes....

i Will Never In this Life Stand or Lay With A Vagina And Uterus So i

Will Leave That

Choice to Her...

i do Have

A Soul With

Compassion

For Others Who Are Not Like me...

And for me at least iN MY SOUL DANCE
AND SONG That's A Best Part of Life For ALL 'Concerned'...

Smiles my FRiEnD, It's Okay if YOU View And Do Reality
Much Differently Than me; and if You Don't Even Dance And Sing At all... Hehe...

As Far As The Abortion And the Closely Associated Transgender And Homosexual

Policies; Democracy Will Decide On What Becomes Legal or Not In This Society next...

Due to the Fact That 'Church Life' Continues to Self-Destruct; Looking Good For

Greater UNiVeRSaL Compassionate FUeLeD Freedoms at this Point...

Will Human Fertility

Rates Continue

To Drop, Yes;

'Big Applause!' By The Rest of Nature (GoD) True!

Yes, My FRiEnD, A Much Greater Moral Authority For Real Indeed...

For You 'See' All of this From 'Alpha Thru Omega' Is Just ALL Nature

(GoD) Culling US iNcluding Us for Balance... That's A Really BiG OPeN

MinDeD/SouLeD PiCTuRE iNDeeD; Requiring All Parts of the ToPiC AT HanD to 'See'...

Restrictions on Abortion Have Real World Consequences For All Of Nature; FoRTuNaTeLY

ALLNature (God)

iS iN

Charge
oF iT ALL...

Yes That Includes You too; The 'Anchor' You Bring

In Your 'Personal Minority Moral Absolute Opinion Here'...

A Ship Has More Sails Than Anchors; Sails Are Light And

Anchors Are A Bit Heavier With SMiLes... Never The Less, Again;
Both Anchors And Sails Are Required For 'Soul Boats' To Survive in Fair Skies And Rough Seas...

So Yes, i See

Your Contribution

of Anchors Welcome

And Worthy of Careful Review...

If it Was a Small Village And Every

All Hands Effort is Required for Survival

Indeed The Village to Raise the Child From
Unborn to Birth All The Way To Death Greatest Cultural Prize of All;

Where Even An All Hands And Other Parts Effort of Prospective

Father's Contribute Welcoming As Such By The Mother's of the Village As Such;

As Yes, There Are Human Cultures Like that too; Practically Bonobo-Like in Reality too...

Very Rarely

Will We Find

'Butthurt Incels' There...

Hmm.. Strikes And Gutter-balls...
Pros and Cons... That is And This is Life too...

Never The Less, Ever Changing, Yes Fascinating
to Study And LiVE NoW True And False too...

That

This

A

Human

Condition For Real

This That Ever Changing (GoD) Nature Now..

---

A fetus isn't entitled to use her body against her will just because it is weak and helpless and dependent.
Still her body and it's an unfortunate outcome but that doesn't change anything. It has no ownership over the flesh upon which it depends therefore it can make no competing claim against the owners interests.