Page 10 of 11 [ 167 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next

carlos55
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Mar 2018
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,000

21 Nov 2023, 5:03 am

Many of these woke groups ruin things for themselves by straying into areas that are not relevant to their central cause.

BLM did this and is a classic example. Most people supported the central idea of eliminating racism & unfairness for black people, then BLM started demanding the defunding of the police.

Why would any law abiding person want to defund the police, are black people not victims of crime too? i believe they were anti nuclear family structure, something again very divisive especially black religious people and not relevant to racism.

Other similarities can be attributed to the trans or neurodiversity movement on instances where they not only deny science fact but even the perceived reality itself.

Many of these groups may have noble central causes but stray into silly divisive areas and they just end up shooting themselves in the foot and alienating potential supporters.

If i was a conspiracy theorist i would say its all done on purpose by agents to sabotage the main noble goal, but its probably because of poor organisation and allowing some crazy people in.


_________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends upon the unreasonable man."

- George Bernie Shaw


ToughDiamond
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Age: 72
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181

21 Nov 2023, 12:15 pm

carlos55 wrote:
Many of these woke groups ruin things for themselves by straying into areas that are not relevant to their central cause.

BLM did this and is a classic example. Most people supported the central idea of eliminating racism & unfairness for black people, then BLM started demanding the defunding of the police.

Why would any law abiding person want to defund the police, are black people not victims of crime too?


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... es-it-mean

The argument seems to be that we're too tough on crime and not tough enough on the causes of crime, that it's not possible to arrest away the problem, and that attempts to root out racism from the police force have failed and will continue to fail. But it certainly did the activists no favours in terms of public support when they introduced that crisp slogan. It seems that a large swathe of the general public doesn't think very carefully about these things, and take it as simply meaning abolishing the police force.

As for straying into areas beyond their central cause, I'm not sure that's such a bad thing. I have a higher regard for BLM activists, feminists, trade unionists etc. who broaden their remit to include other aspects of unfairness, because otherwise you just have self-interested groups who are part of the general problem of inequality. There's a bigger picture.



Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,461
Location: New York City (Queens)

29 Nov 2023, 11:52 am

The following analogy has just occurred to me:

"Woke" is to the left as "red-pilled" is to the far right.

When used unironically, "woke" and "red-pilled" both mean, essentially, "enlightened," without directly specifying the content of what a person is alleged to be enlightened about. Both terms have also been used in an ironic sense by adversaries of groups using them unironically.

The term "red pill" is derived from the movie The Matrix, which came out in 1999.

As soon as that movie came out, the term "red pill" began to be used in all sorts of subcultures, not just right wing ones, to refer to the process of arriving at a belief different from the norm.

For example, on at least one atheist message board that I was on at the time, ex-Christian atheists described the process of giving up their religion as "taking the red pill," whereas Christians were "blue-pilled." (See this page for an example of this usage, as recently as 2015.)

Also, in 2012 to 2015, my partner and I were using the term "red pill" in the context of computer technology, to refer to anything that would enable a virtual machine to be "aware" that it is a virtual machine and not an actual physical machine. (For computer security purposes, it is best that a virtual machine NOT have any "red pills." See this page for an example of this usage.)

Then, in 2016, when almost everyone in the mainstream mass media was shocked by Trump's successes, there began to be a number of mass media articles about various right wing subcultures that previously had been almost completely ignored by the mainstream mass media.

And thus the term "red pill" came to be identified with its use within the "Manosphere."

Almost everyone else who had been using the term "red pill" (unironically) to refer to anything else stopped using it -- except for far-right groups even more stigmatized than the "Manosphere," such as neo-Nazis. (Also, the computer technology sense of the term is still around, perhaps because "red pills" in that sense are undesirable. But this article would not have been written after 2016.)

What has NOT happened, however, is left-wingers using the term "red pill" as an ironic slur against all right wingers, in the same way that a lot of right wing commentators have used "woke" as an ironic slur against anyone and anything even vaguely left wing.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.


NibiruMul
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 1 Dec 2023
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 177
Location: Long Island, New York

01 Dec 2023, 6:28 pm

I use the word "woke" all the time. I'm actually a centrist, and I do have conservative stances on some issues. But I think conservatives tend to get carried away with throwing around the word "woke".



ToughDiamond
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Age: 72
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181

01 Dec 2023, 6:32 pm

NibiruMul wrote:
I use the word "woke" all the time. I'm actually a centrist, and I do have conservative stances on some issues. But I think conservatives tend to get carried away with throwing around the word "woke".

Do you use it to mean "properly aware of institutional racism," or "too aware of the slightest little thing that could be considered racist, sexist, etc." ?



Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,461
Location: New York City (Queens)

04 Dec 2023, 1:52 pm

NibiruMul wrote:
I use the word "woke" all the time. I'm actually a centrist, and I do have conservative stances on some issues. But I think conservatives tend to get carried away with throwing around the word "woke".

When you use the word "woke," what do you mean by it?


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.


CockneyRebel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 117,323
Location: In my little Olympic World of peace and love

05 Dec 2023, 1:40 am

I don't like it when people use their wokeness to call people far-right Nazis. I almost left WP because I felt like an outsider. There are woke policies that I don't agree with.


_________________
The Family Enigma


Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,461
Location: New York City (Queens)

30 Nov 2024, 11:56 am

Why I Stopped Being Anti-Woke on the YouTube channel of DarkMatter2525, Nov 29, 2024:



Quote:
I discuss how and why I changed over the last decade, from being more anti-sjw (anti-woke) to realizing the dangers of falling into that trap.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.


Aspinator
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,454
Location: AspinatorLand

30 Nov 2024, 4:27 pm



Aspinator
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,454
Location: AspinatorLand

01 Dec 2024, 7:55 am









Another "casualty" of the Woke movement. The Dixie Chicks changed their name to just The Chicks This also occurred in 2020



ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,568
Location: Long Island, New York

01 Dec 2024, 8:21 am

The last three videos are about voluntary identity choices. One of my main criticisms of “wokeism” is that it is heavily about demanding others not use language “wokes” disapprove of. It would hypocritical of me to criticize others for choosing not to use that word.

This thread is now 10 pages long and it remains mostly about why using the term woke is bad. A challenge was issued to find less slippery terminology. That challenge has not been answered.


_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,461
Location: New York City (Queens)

01 Dec 2024, 8:40 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
One of my main criticisms of “wokeism” is that it is heavily about demanding others not use language “wokes” disapprove of.

Are you against language reform generally, or just against people being too impatient about it?

Language reform, of one kind or another, has been part of left/progressive movements for as long as I can remember.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.


ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,568
Location: Long Island, New York

01 Dec 2024, 9:12 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
One of my main criticisms of “wokeism” is that it is heavily about demanding others not use language “wokes” disapprove of.

Are you against language reform generally, or just against people being too impatient about it?

Language reform, of one kind or another, has been part of left/progressive movements for as long as I can remember.

Language naturally evolves. I am against unnatural weaponizing of language specifically to stigmatize or shame political opponents into compliance. And that is most certainly not only a left wing thing.


_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 30,110
Location: Right over your left shoulder

01 Dec 2024, 9:21 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
This thread is now 10 pages long and it remains mostly about why using the term woke is bad. A challenge was issued to find less slippery terminology. That challenge has not been answered.


I think that's part of the problem, what's being criticized is inherently ill-defined so whether it's political correctness or woke or whatever new label gets applied, the definition will be loose because ultimately the complaint is largely emotional in nature.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
You can't advance to the next level without stomping on a few Koopas.


Edna3362
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,788
Location: ᜆᜄᜎᜓᜄ᜔

01 Dec 2024, 9:47 pm

To me, woke is a weird word.

Something that sometimes exists online because of foreign presence, and practically non-existent in real life.


_________________
Gained Number Post Count (1).
Lose Time (n).

Lose more time here - Updates at least once a week.


Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,461
Location: New York City (Queens)

01 Dec 2024, 10:27 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Language naturally evolves. I am against unnatural weaponizing of language specifically to stigmatize or shame political opponents into compliance. And that is most certainly not only a left wing thing.

How do you feel about deliberate language reform (e.g. by pressuring newspapers to change their style guides) for the purpose of making the language more inclusive of the sensibilities of various marginalized groups?

When you and I were growing up, the English language was full of everyday casual racist expressions. During our lifetimes, many such expressions have been gotten rid of. Some were obviously racist (e.g. "Indian giver"), while others (e.g. the "Aunt Jemima" syrup brand) were more subtle, recognized as racist only by people familiar with the relevant history.

These changes weren't entirely "natural." They happened because enough people complained about these issues to the right people.

Do you feel that these changes were bad, for that reason? Or do you object only when such changes are pushed for in an especially nasty/impatient way, e.g. by bullying people who haven't kept up to date on the very latest language changes (especially the less obvious ones)?


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.


Last edited by Mona Pereth on 01 Dec 2024, 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.