War - A necessary evil?

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Anubis
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25 Aug 2008, 4:44 pm

We can evolve beyond war, but do not expect that for another century or so.

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ZakFiend
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25 Aug 2008, 5:07 pm

slowmutant wrote:

We can all be thankful that's it not up to you, Sand.

It really doesn't matter the powers in government and the business sector believe the same thing sand does, so effectively, it is you who are not in the mainstream when it comes to the halls of power.

War in IRAQ = war for oil, also a cultural war, islam vs the west, etc, etc. Study history, the problem has always been with people, people prefer illusions of truth over what actually is truth, and most importantly, they don't know how to seperate what is true from what is illusion. There are sound methods of doing so, hence we invented science.

Dox47
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26 Aug 2008, 1:09 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

I don't see any patriotism or nationalism in any of the quotes I posted, I was just listing some historical alternatives to Einstein's views.

Quote:

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
- John Stuart Mill English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873) .

What do you call this then

There is nothing in that quote referring to any particular nation, and it's not about patriotism. What it's author is talking about is that there are worse things than war, such as moral decay.

Dox47 wrote:

Personally, I fail to see how the guy being a genius in theoretical physics makes him a qualified expert on warfare, but attaching his name to any quote gives it a gravitas it otherwise would not possess..

DentArthurDent wrote:

Yes he was a brilliant scientist, he was also a brilliant person who had some enlightened views on the world.

Based on what? The fact that you agree with him? Generally speaking, when it comes to warfare I'll take my advice from people who have experienced it, not "enlightened" intellectuals with "theories" about it.

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chever
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26 Aug 2008, 1:29 am

Dox47 wrote:

Why? His views might be valid. You have to evaluate them as they come, regardless who said them.

Based on my own strictly civilian knowledge, I suspect a new arms race will start to unfold within the next ten years. It's not going to be good.

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DentArthurDent
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26 Aug 2008, 3:03 am

chever wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Unfortunaltely as much as I do not want it to happen I believe we are heading for another major conflict. We are going down similar paths from the past.

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DentArthurDent
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26 Aug 2008, 3:21 am

Dox47 wrote:

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
- John Stuart Mill English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)

Dox47 wrote:

There is nothing in that quote referring to any particular nation, and it's not about patriotism. What it's author is talking about is that there are worse things than war, such as moral decay.

Unless Mills is using a from of the English language that I am unfamiliar with he absolutely refers to patriotism. Other than moral decay he is saying that a lack of patriotic fever is worse than having a war. If you cannot see that in his words then you are serverly lacking in english comprehension skills, this is hardly Shakespeare his opinion is very, very clear. He is a a war monger and if you agree with this statement then so are you.

You claim that this is only about moral decay and the author considers moral decay worse than war. Personally I find war to be the epitome of moral decay.

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26 Aug 2008, 3:23 am

chever wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Ahh, see I do evaluate things regardless of who said them. I also take their life experience into account as far as how much weight I give their opinion on a given matter. I still think that quoting Albert Einstein on warfare is like quoting Adam Smith as a literary critic, he may be an expert, but not on the subject at hand. To me, the quotes would have simply been pithy drivel and not taken seriously without the famous name attached to them, hence my opposition.

As to there being a global arms race, whether or not it's a "good" thing is purely a matter of perspective. My preferred field is in arms design, and most of my schooling is in that arena, so a global arms build up would be quite a good thing for those in my position. Sucks for the pacifists, but eggs and omelets, you know. :wink:

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DentArthurDent
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26 Aug 2008, 3:59 am

Dox47 wrote:

As to there being a global arms race, whether or not it's a "good" thing is purely a matter of perspective. My preferred field is in arms design, and most of my schooling is in that arena, so a global arms build up would be quite a good thing for those in my position. Sucks for the pacifists, but eggs and omelets, you know. :wink:

Until now I have refrained from a personal attack, but this post makes my blood boil. You talk of an arms race from a matter of perspective you selfish little s**t, you are prepared to profit from the death of others, and you dare post something that talks about the decline in moral values. People like you who profit from proliferating wars disgust me.

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26 Aug 2008, 4:36 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

Until now I have refrained from a personal attack, but this post makes my blood boil. You talk of an arms race from a matter of perspective you selfish little sh**, you are prepared to profit from the death of others, and you dare post something that talks about the decline in moral values. People like you who profit from proliferating wars disgust me.

What disgusts me is that if I said what you just did, I'd get at the least a rudely worded warning, and probably a ban. My guess is nothing will happen, not that I'd go crying to the mods about hurt feelings in the first place.

As an Aspie, you ought to know that where our interests lie are often not up to us. For me, it was always weapons, since I could make a gun shape with my fingers. I invent, and what I invent happens to be weaponry. It's not about profiting from bloodshed for me, it's about doing what I love. That merely pointing out that whether a given situation is good or bad is relative could "make your blood boil" says more about you than it does about me, perhaps you should take a break from the forums, for your health's sake.

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DentArthurDent
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26 Aug 2008, 4:54 am

Dox47 wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

Absolute garbage. you cannot use our particular disorder for an excuse for profiteering from the manufacture of weapons, have some control! You stated that you will benefit from an expanded weapons industry. IMO that position is despicable, Yes your position makes my blood boil but unlike others whose "blood Boils" I will contest you with words rather than turn to guns and weaponry. If you're feeling hurt maybe you should go visit some displaced persons camps and see what real hurt feels like, because this is the sort of hurt that weapons races end in.

I will however apologise for abusing you personally that was uncalled for and wrong

Dox47
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26 Aug 2008, 5:33 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

The problem here is that you think there is something wrong with an interest in weapons. I don't. I merely bring up the Asperger's for contextual and background purposes, I need no "excuse" for my interests. As for "self control", I'm not the one losing my temper and launching personal attacks because I disagree with someone's ethics on the internet, that's just a losing game.

Weaponry is a commodity like any other, it holds no intrinsic morality. I think I can build a better mousetrap, but in my case the mousetrap happens to shoot. Why shouldn't I capitalize on a gift I've been given? In my case, most of my designs deal with small arms and consist of ease of handling and improved safety systems, incremental upgrades if you will. What I'm getting at is designing next years guns is no different than designing next years Fords when you really get down to it, basic mechanical engineering.

What you seem to be having an issue with is the idea of profiting from war. The way I look at it, there is not a whole lot that I personally can do to cause or prevent a war, but given that the demand for the tools of war is quite high, and that I have the aptitude and the skills to provide those tools, it would be foolish of me not to. Why should I not make money doing something I like and am good at?

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DentArthurDent
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26 Aug 2008, 7:19 am

Dox47 wrote:

Fine have no morals go ahead use your skills to create weapons that do nothing more than, maim and kill, destroy peoples lives, rip families apart and destroy nature. Live your life in a bubble and convince yourself that all you are doing is basic engineering no different from Ford.
Of course I have issues with people profiteering from war IMO this is one of the most vile and despicable of human behaviours, and you are choosing to have a part in it. You claim that you would be foolish not to have a part in it, you claim to have a gift, many people have gifts its how they choose to use them that is important, you could maybe use your skills to manufacture parts for Ford instead of pretending that what you do is no different.

If you really think what you do is so ok go and visit a war zone and talk, not to the idiotic combatants, but to the human beings caught up in the madness.Get a real perspective on what weapons really do, as opposed to mechanical specifications.

This is the last I am going to speak on this subject. I think I have made my views very clear. Just realise that more than your interest in weaponry, it is your attitude that a weapons race is a good thing that I despise, wars if they have to happen (something of which I am not convinced) should be greeted with great sadness not the rubbing of hands in glee because of the money to be made.

slowmutant
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26 Aug 2008, 7:39 am

Sand wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Those weren't real Christians. Obviously they were wolves-in-sheep's clothing.

And, of course, Hitler's Nazis weren't real Nazis and Stalin's butcher boys weren't real Communists and so on and so forth. Frankly, as he is portrayed, I suspect Jesus wasn't a real Christian.

Now you're talking nonsense.

DentArthurDent
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26 Aug 2008, 7:55 am

slowmutant wrote:

Sand wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Those weren't real Christians. Obviously they were wolves-in-sheep's clothing.

And, of course, Hitler's Nazis weren't real Nazis and Stalin's butcher boys weren't real Communists and so on and so forth. Frankly, as he is portrayed, I suspect Jesus wasn't a real Christian.

Now you're talking nonsense.

To a point I get what sand is saying, Stalinism has very little resemblance to the ideals of communism as put down by Karl Marx, dont know enough about Nazism to comment, and with regard to Jesus the depiction we have of Jesus today probably bears little resemblance to the man himself and possible his teachings. Off course Sand might just be being sarcastic and Dent has missed the point entirely :wink:

slowmutant
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26 Aug 2008, 8:34 am

I don't know why you're comparing Jesus to Stalin and Marx.

DentArthurDent
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26 Aug 2008, 8:53 am

^ LOL I'm not. I was trying to make sense of sand's post. I presumed he was saying that labels get applied when they are not correct IE Stalin was not communist (certainly not by the standards of Marx) and maybe Jesus has been described differently by people that came after him and the modern definition of Christianity would not agree with Jesus. I don't know if this makes sense I am pretty tired. But I definitely was not trying to compare Marx, Nazism, or Jesus

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