Denying the holocaust

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I can understand that POV but to some, more hinges on the issue.

denial of the holocaust is an opinion and a point of view. it can easily be argued against, and thats the whole point of free speech.

i deny that jesus, the "historical" person, ever existed. should that be worse, or better?

http://buchanan.org/blog/pjb-the-true-haters-1495

PJB: The True Haters
>>> Join the forum discussion on this post... - (40) Posts

by Patrick J. Buchanan

On Good Friday, John Demjanjuk, 89 and gravely ill, was ordered deported to Germany to stand trial as an accessory to the murder of 29,000 Jews — at Sobibor camp in Poland.

Sound familiar? It should. It is a re-enactment of the 1986 extradition of John Demjanjuk to Israel to be tried for the murder of 870,000 Jews — at Treblinka camp in Poland.

How many men in the history of this country have been so relentlessly pursued and remorselessly persecuted?

The ordeal of this American Dreyfus began 30 years ago.

In 1979, the Office of Special Investigations (OSI) at Justice, goaded and guided by Yuri Andropov’s KGB, was persuaded that Demjanjuk was “Ivan the Terrible,” a huge, brutal, sadistic guard at Treblinka, who bashed in babies’ heads and slashed off women’s breasts, as he drove hundreds of thousands of Jews into the gas chambers.

Demjanjuk’s defense was simple: I was never at Treblinka.

Yet, a dozen survivors, shown a photo spread, identified him as the beast of Treblinka. In 1986, OSI had him extradited to Israel. In 1988, he was convicted and sentenced to death. The greatest Holocaust monster since Mengele was to be hanged.

His family, friends and lawyers did not give up. They scoured Europe and, in the last days of the Soviet Union, struck pay dirt. In Moscow’s files on Treblinka they discovered a photo of the real “Ivan,” a far bigger, more mature man than the 23-year-old Demjanjuk in 1943.

Ivan Marchenko was positively identified as Ivan the Terrible.

To its eternal credit, Israel’s Supreme Court threw aside the verdict and stopped Demjanjuk from being the first man hanged in Jerusalem since Adolf Eichmann in 1961.

A humiliated OSI, through its Israeli friends, now asked the court to authorize a new trial, charging Demjanjuk with having been a guard at Sobibor — during the same time they previously charged he had been at Treblinka.

What OSI was admitting was that its case against Demjanjuk, to see him hang from the gallows as “Ivan the Terrible,” had been based on flimsy or falsified evidence and worthless or perjured testimony.

Replied the court, we don’t do double jeopardy here in Israel.

Demjanjuk was released. And the grin of the jailer who opened his cell testified that many in Israel never accepted the charge that this simple man was some unrivaled devil of the Holocaust.

So, after 13 years, the last four on death row reflecting on his hanging for horrors he never committed, Demjanjuk came home to Cleveland, a free man. His citizenship was restored.

Though disgraced, OSI was not ready to throw in its hand. For it had been dealt a new card by its old comrades in the KGB.

The new evidence was a signed statement by one “Danilchenko,” who claimed to have been a guard at Sobibor and had worked with Demjanjuk. As this document would have blown up the Treblinka case in Jerusalem, OSI had withheld it from the defense.

Another document turned up suggesting that Demjanjuk had indeed, after training at Trawniki camp, been assigned to Sobibor.

When the defense asked to interrogate “Danilchenko,” to verify he had made and signed the statement and to question him on details, they were told this was not possible. Seems Danilchenko had died after signing.

So, after the first 13 years of his ordeal took him right up to a gallows in Jerusalem, Demjanjuk has now been pursued for another 17 years by an OSI that will not rest until he has been convicted, somewhere, of genocide.

And so we come to today.

Demjanjuk is to be taken to Germany and prosecuted as an accessory to the murder of 29,000 Jews at Sobibor — though not one living person can place him at that camp and not even the German prosecutor will say that he ever hurt anyone. One witness in Israel, who was at Sobibor and says he knew all the camp guards, says he never saw Demjanjuk there.

If Friday’s ruling is upheld, John Demjanjuk, who has been charged with no crime on German soil, is to be taken to Germany, home of the Third Reich, to be tried by Germans for his alleged role in a genocide planned and perpetrated by Germans. He is to serve as the sacrificial lamb whose blood washes away the stain of Germany’s sins.

But if Germans wish to prosecute participants in the Holocaust, why not round up some old big-time Nazis, instead of a Ukrainian POW.

Answer: They cannot. Because the Germans voted an amnesty for themselves in 1969. So now they must find a Slav soldier they captured — and Heinrich Himmler’s SS conscripted and made a camp guard, if he ever was a camp guard — to punish in expiation for Germany’s sins.

<snip>

Whether he was guilty or not as an individual it says nothing about the reality of the crimes. Just as the guilt or innocence of OJ doesnt change the fact that two people are dead.

My wife had a family member in the OSI in WWII, saw the camps, took photos, etc. He didnt have a very nice view of the germans. I cant remember which camp it was but he had photos of executed jews in piles, stacked on beds, etc. He was part of an investigative unit iirc.

OSI - are worthy of some investigation themselves.

The often used footage of bodies being bulldozed into pits come from Belsen where a huge amount of inmates died from gastrointestinal complications after having been fed too much after liberation. This event is swept under the carpet and the footage often used to illustrate the atrocities of the Nazis - the atrocity was they left these people starving and quarantined to die as Typhus spread through the camp, whilst there was an SS medical building less than 2km away - this was toward the very end of the war obviously, when Germany was utterly broken and in disarray - records show that until this point disease in the camp was limited *shrugs*.but the oft cited official story is that the allies arrived to find everyone executed as inhumane as the actual reality in this specific case nonetheless was.


Also, it is my conjecture that the amount of people dying from Typhus and being left untreated to die from Typhus in MANY of the camps is still tantamount to an act of genocide. I just dispute the claims of systematic slaughter as the logistics do NOT stand up to scrutiny.

The official version of events all relates to UN resolution 181 - that is the crux of the matter and you might investigate who owns Israel - because the common Jew is in the process of being set up once again for slaughter - yes, it is important to learn from history but seemingly many haven't.

No offence to your relative in particular but the OSI have been shown to have been involved in psyops and the veracity of their material is highly questionable be it shrunken heads put on display at Buchenwald main camp or expose's of fabricated statistics at the time transit camps were in operation etc etc.

I could recount emotional testimonies I have heard too, as so far this appears to been the best efforts of debunking the debunker on this thread thus far..

And in terms of prejudice against the Germans, it's probably bears rth mentioning the very hidden history of Polish concentration camps for Germans before the NSDAP had even built their first KZ during WW2...or the massacares of Germans that took place at the hands of advancing allied troops.

It is a dirty history - yes, the Nazis were disgusting murderers but the official painting of the history is a fraud.

Well it does illustrate beyond reasonable doubt that there is/was a lot of duplicitous BS flying around concerning the event, don't you think?

When you look at the world through BS colored glasses it all looks like BS.

So take them off

How did your wife’s friend know the people in those piles had been executed? How did he know which ones were Jews?

Everyone’s seen those gruesome photos from the camps.The one I always remember is the one with the bulldozer and the pile of corpses in Bergen-Belsen.
Take a look at what the US Holocaust Memorial Museum website ( here ) says about Bergen-Belsen:
As prisoners evacuated from the east continued to arrive [in Bergen-Belsen] the camp population soared to over 60,000 by April 15, 1945. … Overcrowding, poor sanitary conditions, and the lack of adequate food, water, and shelter led to an outbreak of diseases such as typhus, tuberculosis, typhoid fever, and dysentery, causing an ever increasing number of deaths .. On April 15, 1945, British forces … found around sixty thousand prisoners in the camp, most of them seriously ill. Thousands of corpses lay unburied on the camp grounds … more than 13,000 former prisoners, too ill to recover, died after liberation. After evacuating Bergen-Belsen, British forces burned down the whole camp to prevent the spread of typhus.

Wikipedia ( here ) says: In 1945, large numbers of prisoners were moved to Belsen from the eastern camps as the Soviet forces advanced. The resulting overcrowding led to a vast increase in deaths from disease (particularly typhus) … There were no gas chambers in Bergen-Belsen, since the mass executions took place in the camps further east.

It’s a similar story with the photos from Dachau and Buchenwald. So here is something both mainstream and revisionist historians agree on: the images that most people associate with the supposed deliberate mass murder of millions of Jews in gas chambers are images of (mostly) typhus victims in camps without any gas chambers.

The camps in the east where the mass gassings supposedly took place (as the wikipedia article mentions) were the ones the Soviets liberated, i.e., the ones that were closed off to western journalists for years. A coincidence?

Well, take the alleged gas chamber at Auschwitz that was shown to tourists for years as if it was in its original state. In 1992 Dr Francizek Piper of the Auschwitz Museum admitted on video to the Jewish revisionist David Cole that it had been built by the Communists after the war (as a so-called reconstruction), and now the Auschwitz Museum has officially come clean about it. [The David Cole video is on YouTube. Concenik has mentioned it several times. Did anyone watch it?]

As for the gas chambers in Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor, no one can examine them because they were supposedly destroyed by the Nazis before the camps were liberated.

If the evidence for the gas chambers is flimsy, the evidence for the extermination plan is not much better. TV historians might tell you stuff about how the holocaust is ‘the most well-documented event in history’ (love that hyperbole) and then leave it at that, but Leon Poliakov (who was Jewish, and a holocaust historian) actually wrote the following on p108 of his book Harvest of Hate “The archives of the Third Reich and the depositions and accounts of its leaders make possible a reconstruction, down to the last detail, of the origin and development of the plans for aggression, the military campaigns, and the whole array of procedures by which the Nazis intended to reshape the world to their liking. Only the campaign to exterminate the Jews, as regards its conception as well as many other essential aspects, remains shrouded in darkness … The three or four people chiefly involved in the actual drawing up of the plan for total extermination are dead and no documents have survived, perhaps none ever existed”

The text of the famous Wannsee Conference actually states that the Final Solution to the Jewish Question was deportation to the East. (Some mainstream historians have suggested that the Nazis spoke in code about all this, which kind of gives them license to interpret Nazi documents however they like.)

See, the Nazis weren’t the only side to use concentration camps. The US put Japanese-Americans into camps too. Stories about German atrocities in their camps spread during the war, and continued afterwards with the post-war trials and eyewitness testimonies. Several of these stories have now been discredited and are rarely mentioned anymore (mass murder by electrocution, by pedal-powered brain-bashing machine, by steam, by vacuum, by atomic bomb [no, really]; human soap; lampshades made of skin.)

So why has the gas chamber story stuck? Well, one thing’s for sure: the Nazis did actually use Zyklon-B in chambers for delousing clothes. This is something mainstream historians and revisionists alike actually agree on. I wonder how many people actually know this though. An American execution-equipment expert named Fred Leuchter was commissioned by Ernst Zundel’s defence team to take brick samples from buildings at Auschwitz and test them for zyklon residues. He found the readings in the delousing chambers were off the scale, while the readings in the alleged gassing chambers were negligible, and concluded that the alleged gas chambers at Auschwitz could not have been used for gassing people. He published his findings and his career and his life was ruined.

And anyone who thinks revisionism is evidence of Nazi sympathies needs to realise that two of the earliest holocaust revisionists were actually prisoners in Nazi concentration camps themselves: a Jewish man named JG Burg , and a French Socialist named Paul Rassinier. Burg was denied a Jewish burial for his sins. Rassinier nearly died of typhus in Buchenwald, but based on his experiences as a prisoner and on his research after the war, he concluded that the extermination plan and gas chamber stories were propaganda lies.

Heh, I wonder how many people realised that that was a reference to the Holocaust memoir by Mischa deFonseca, in which she claimed to have escaped from the Nazis as a six year old after killing a German soldier and then wandering across Europe before being sheltered by a pack of wolves. It was a bestseller for ten years, until it was exposed as a hoax in 2008. Other holocaust memoirs exposed as hoaxes include Herman Rosenblat’s and Benjamin Wilkorski’s. Add to that the fact that two of the earliest holocaust revisionists (JG Burg and Paul Rassinier, already mentioned) were prisoners in Nazi concentration camps themselves and the assertion that we must believe the holocaust story because of ‘all those eyewitnesses’ doesn’t seem so strong. Who are all these eyewitnesses and what do they say?

Here are some survival stories / eyewitness accounts / confessions the Holocaust Industry probably doesn’t want us to think too hard about.

(1) From the London Times of 16th March 2008 a story about how 800 Jews survived World War 2 in a Jewish hospital in Nazi Berlin.

(2) From the European Jewish Press in 2008 a story about a Jewish man named Marcel Kalmann. It reveals that he was born in Auschwitz. Imagine that, the Nazis had a plan to kill all the Jews in Europe and they let a pregnant woman give birth in their most notorious death camp.

(3) From the UK Telegraph paper in 2008, a story about a Jewish man named Eugene Black. He survived Bergen-Belsen, and had for years believed his sisters had been killed at Auschwitz. After being granted access to a selection of wartime files at Bad Arolsen, Germany he found they had in fact survived Auschwitz only to be killed later in an Allied bombing raid near Buchenwald. It hasn’t shaken his belief in the gas chamber story though. [These Bad Arolsen records were supposed to shut the revisionists up for good, but they refuse to put the scanned records online.]

(4) Anne Frank herself survived Auschwitz, and later died of typhus in Bergen-Belsen. Her sister and mother also died of typhus. Her father Otto admitted after the war that he had fallen ill at Auschwitz and been nursed back to health in the camp hospital

(5) In Elie Wiesel’s autobiographical book Night, he describes how he was having treatment on a bad foot in the Auschwitz-Birkenau hospital, when the Germans gave him the option of staying to be liberated by the Soviets, or evacuating west with the Germans. He chose to evacuate west with the Germans. Also, the first edition of his book makes no mention of gas chambers, but instead speaks of people being thrown into flaming pits.

(6) In Simon Wiesenthal’s book The Murderers Among Us he describes how he slit his wrists while incarcerated in a Nazi camp, only for the Nazis to send him to the camp hospital and nurse him back to health

(7) A Jewish woman named Marika Frank arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau in July 1944. She testified after the war that she heard and saw nothing of "gas chambers" during her time there. She heard the gassing stories only later. An Austrian woman, Maria Vanherwaarden, testified in Toronto in 1988 that she had been forced into the showers at Auschwitz and had expected to be gassed based on rumours she’d heard, only to find it was water that came out of the shower heads

( 8 ) You can find transcripts from the Nuremberg trials online and read about how prosecutor Robert Jackson accused the Nazis of killing 20,000 Jews with an atomic bomb, how the Nazis allegedly killed 840,000 Russian prisoners at Sachsenhausen in one go using a murder van, how the Nazis killed Russian prisoners with foot-lever controlled brain-bashing machines because their snipers were such bad shots, how the Nazis committed mass-murder by mass electrocution at Camp Belsen. At Nuremberg the Germans were also accused of committing the massacre of Polish soldiers in the Katyn Forest. It wasn’t until 1989 that the Soviets admitted they had done it.

(9) Arnold Friedman in Death Was Our Destiny (1972) claimed to have survived a gas chamber at Flossenberg (a camp that even mainstream historians will tell you contained no gas chambers) by breathing through the keyhole. Moshe Peer claimed to have survived six gassings at Belsen. Irene Zisblatt in The Fifth Diamond, describes how she hid her diamonds from the Nazis at Auschwitz by swallowing them and crapping them out constantly for 15 months. Filip Mueller in his book Sonderbehandlung describes how he ate cake in a cyanide-saturated gas chamber. Samuel Rajzman testified that people were initially killed in Treblinka by means of a vacuum chamber. An article in the Israeli Haaretz newspaper, 2007 mentions Yocheved Aryeh who survived Auschwitz thanks to a short circuit in the gas chamber on the day she was due to be killed. It also mentions Eliezer Ayalon, who survived five camps. David Faber claimed to have survived nine camps (is this a record?). Ahuva Folman was first interned as a 7 year old and went on to survive three years in Treblinka, before being sent to Auschwitz, which he also survived (even though Treblinka was supposed to be a pure death camp and even though children were supposed to be the first to be selected for death at Auschwitz).

Fair enough, you are the OPer after all. But is no one apart from Concenik interested in what holocaust revisionists actually have to say?
And for the record I do think holocaust revisionism should be legal.





I thought it was an inappropriate parody. It drew a false parallel, because you cannot get put into prison for questioning details of world war 2 other than the Holocaust. And if you asked the man in the street to tell you how many Frenchmen, Englishmen, Germans, Russians or Italians died during the war, they probably wouldn’t know, but they’d almost certainly be able to tell you about the 6 million Jews.

The political utility of the Holocaust must be obvious to people ... for the Allies to justify after the fact a war that killed over 70 million people, for Israel to justify her creation and protect her from criticism, for nutjobs like Bush and McCain to justify foreign wars. I mean really, does the fact that revisionism has been made illegal in so many countries not make anyone curious?

Seriously though, when I first heard that there were people out there who doubted the holocaust I thought it was the dumbest thing I’d ever heard. I came across one of these people on another forum way back, and I told him several times what a nutjob he was, as did most other people on the thread. Seriously, it took a long, long time for it to dawn on me that I barely even knew the most basic details of the mainstream holocaust account. I believed the story (whatever it was, I wasn’t sure) because history books stated it as fact, and I’d seen ‘the pictures’. I believed it not because I’d weighed up the evidence, but simply because I couldn’t conceive of how it could be wrong.

I don't see anything specific to Jews in the German law, it only refers to genocidal acts committed by the Nazis against any religious, racial or national group, which would include Jews, Roma, Poles, etc:

§ 130 Volksverhetzung



English translation:



section 220a:



If you don't think the Nazis killed civilians, go to a bar in Poland and say "Naziści nie zabił pięć milionów polskich cywilów. To było kłamstwo." Come back if you still have unbroken fingers to type with after that.

The fact is that according to census data millions of Jews, Poles and others that were alive before the war were not alive afterwards. Whether they died because the Nazis shot them, or put them into camps where they caught typhus, or starved them, or gassed them is irrelevant to the fact that a genocide was committed. In Poland alone, 5.4 million civilians: 2.4 million Catholic and 3 million Jewish. 16% of Poland's prewar population. In the USSR, 12.4 million: 11.4 million Orthodox and 1 million Jewish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

The Axis losses don't even begin to compare to that. The majority of the German casualties were Nazi military.

I do think genocide denial should be legal, like all forms of free speech - so that it can be laughed at.

Perfect! I will add that to Sturgeon's Axiom: 85 percent of everything is sh*t. Thank you.

ruveyn

Nope, not really.


I agree.


The Allies had enough justification for the war already, Bush and McCain haven't been pushing foreign wars with the justification of the Holocaust (at least, not that I have seen), but the point about Israel is probably somewhat valid. I do wonder why it would be illegal.


OK. This is true of everything you know, so what's the difference? You probably don't know how to prove the theorems that gave you the formulas you used in high school math classes. You haven't weighed up the evidence about what happened during the Civil War, or WWI, or the 1924 US Presidential election, or the Battle of Hastings. You haven't weighed the evidence for and against Newtonian physics, or for the atomic theory of matter. You accept all these things as true because they are stated as fact in books. They are stated as fact in those books because people better informed than you and I have weighed the evidence and determined that all of those things are indeed grounded in fact.

"Revisionist"

What a laughable euphemism.

Of course it should be legal, but there are a lot of really disgusting people in this thread.

Even if half the cherry-picked "evidence" is true, it really changes nothing.

How so? Revisionism refers to challenging accepted views of history. It's a broader term than just "Holocaust denial," and probably more accurate as not all "Holocaust deniers" deny that the Holocaust occurred.


It would be quite significant if what we believed about our history was false.