On the release of the lockerbie bomber

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ruveyn
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27 Aug 2009, 8:44 am

Sand wrote:

ruveyn

Letting a fatally sick and dying man, whatever his past might have been, die in peace. Even assuming he was guilty, nothing is to be gained by letting him suffer. Only a very bitter attitude applauds meaningless suffering. To exercise that bitterness in vicious meanness is to perform in the same manner as the criminal. As I indicated, this type of kindness is not appreciated by small minded people.[/quote]

Vicious Meanness? You mean blowing up a plane full of innocent passengers is not vicious meanness?

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ascan
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27 Aug 2009, 9:12 am

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

But did he do it?

A jury of Scots thought so. That is what counts...

He didn't get a jury. It was a panel of three judges.

ascan
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27 Aug 2009, 9:17 am

Sand wrote:

...nothing is to be gained by letting him suffer...

This is the main point. Moreover, there's potentially much to be gained by his release. You can't go on fighting battles ad infinitum. At some point gestures need to be made to resolve conflict and bad feeling.

Sand
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27 Aug 2009, 9:17 am

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

ruveyn

Vicious Meanness? You mean blowing up a plane full of innocent passengers is not vicious meanness?

ruveyn[/quote]

For a man who prides himself in wide knowledge and understanding with some demonstrated validity I am surprised you couldn't read a simple sentence and grasp its intent. No doubt you have some stature in some fields of knowledge but your incessantly expressed bitterness towards humanity and overtly expressed ungenerous attitudes to the point of sadism indicates you are an emotional midget. The total stature of a person can be judged by the attitude towards the least deserving human.

phil777
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27 Aug 2009, 10:19 am

^ I know that one, it's called empathy and compassion, is it not? <.< I sure hope Ruveyn isn't hiding behind his (self?) diagnosis of Asperger to claim his innocence in that regard.

skafather84
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27 Aug 2009, 10:24 am

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

Perhaps the concept of locking a vicious killer in a prison has validity in cutting down the number of people free to do nasty things but as a lesson to others with the same inclinations it has zero effects. As an exercise of vengeance I suppose it has minor effects but for someone who has lost a family member or a friend I doubt it helps to any reasonable degree. I have read the man suffers from a fatal disease and will not survive long anyway. The enthusiasm of his countrymen for random killing will not be affected one way or another. Whatever the solution might be for opposing mindless killings I doubt prison is effective.

Proposition:

What if the responsible party had to face his victims and reach an understanding with them? Make sure both parties cannot hurt the other but force them into a conversation and allow the victim to express directly to them about who the offender hurt.

Kind of a spin on Henry Rollins' idea for Slobodan Milošević which was more that Slobodan should have to write the name of each victim whose death he was responsible for. Considering the massive number of people he killed, he'd be busy for a number of years seeing the extent of his damage.

Just because there's been talk here about the death penalty for a guy who killed 5 teens and I'd rather see the above done than either the death penalty or life imprisonment. Vengeance is the mechanism of the stupid.

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ruveyn
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27 Aug 2009, 4:58 pm

ascan wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

But did he do it?

A jury of Scots thought so. That is what counts...

He didn't get a jury. It was a panel of three judges.

Close enough. He was convicted legally.

I am sure Scots judges know how to evaluate evidence.

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DentArthurDent
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28 Aug 2009, 6:09 am

ruveyn wrote:

ascan wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

But did he do it?

A jury of Scots thought so. That is what counts...

He didn't get a jury. It was a panel of three judges.

Close enough. He was convicted legally.

I am sure Scots judges know how to evaluate evidence.

ruveyn

That is completely f*****g absurd, legal history is awash with pardons to the wrongly convicted, not to mention the execution of innocents

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ruveyn
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28 Aug 2009, 9:02 am

skafather84 wrote:

Vengeance is the mechanism of the stupid.

Righteous Vengeance is the closest approximation to Justice we have.

Whenever they are merciful to the unjust, sooner or later they will be unjust to the merciful.

ruveyn

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29 Aug 2009, 8:22 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

That is completely f***ing absurd, legal history is awash with pardons to the wrongly convicted, not to mention the execution of innocents

We are talking about Scotland, not the State of Texas.

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skafather84
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29 Aug 2009, 9:49 am

ruveyn wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Vengeance is the mechanism of the stupid.

Righteous Vengeance is the closest approximation to Justice we have.

Whenever they are merciful to the unjust, sooner or later they will be unjust to the merciful.

ruveyn

I never said anything about mercy. All I said is that vengeance is the mechanism of the stupid

And as far as "righteous vengeance" goes: "righteous vengeance" only leads to the ovens.

You seem to be mired in the horrors of history but you've yet to learn the real lessons from it. Only the empirical surface mechanisms at a very base understanding. You were ranting in another thread about actually wanting to learn and understand and yet you yourself show NO want of learning and understanding history and all the nuances of what lead to the events that you so greatly live in fear of all your life. It's sad and I wish you could get past all of the jingoism and fear and false rhetoric and truly look at everything rather than simply just the myth and overly simplified lore of what happened.

ruveyn
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29 Aug 2009, 10:03 am

skafather84 wrote:

And as far as "righteous vengeance" goes: "righteous vengeance" only leads to the ovens.

You seem to be mired in the horrors of history but you've yet to learn the real lessons from it. Only the empirical surface mechanisms at a very base understanding. You were ranting in another thread about actually wanting to learn and understand and yet you yourself show NO want of learning and understanding history and all the nuances of what lead to the events that you so greatly live in fear of all your life. It's sad and I wish you could get past all of the jingoism and fear and false rhetoric and truly look at everything rather than simply just the myth and overly simplified lore of what happened.

I understand history thoroughly. I have come to do so the old fashioned way, by Studying It, particularly primary sources when I can. One lesson I have learned. Goodness almost never prevails. A second lesson I learned. The Strong win and the Weak Lose.

As to righteous vengance leading only to the ovens, not so. We fixed the Nazis real good in WW2 and put a stop to the ovens. Righteous vengence led to a speedy termination of the Pacific War. Two nukes and the Japanese became lovable and humble in a hurry. That saved both the lives of Americans and the lives of Japanese. We fixed Tojo and his bunch real good. Now Japan is a peaceful civilized nation -- thanks to righteous vengence.

Two Cheers for Being Strong.

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skafather84
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29 Aug 2009, 11:09 am

ruveyn wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Again and again and again, you don't understand history. You understand war history in a very sloppy, plain manner but you don't understand the history of how people operate, how societies operate, and what drives people to move the way they do. Your understanding of things is on the level of a fascist who rules only through strength. You're primal.

ruveyn
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29 Aug 2009, 11:16 am

skafather84 wrote:

Again and again and again, you don't understand history. You understand war history in a very sloppy, plain manner but you don't understand the history of how people operate,

No. YOU don't get it. Plain and straightforward is best. Sloppy and plain contradict. I understand the lessons of history neat and plain which anyone who bothers to study it can also do. Straightforward is best forward. Or in the words of Yodah: Simple Keep It Stupid.

I know how people operate. The vast majority of them are silly and foolish. Which is why we keep on having wars, tyranny, suffering and death. I am smarter and better prepared than 95 percent of the human race. That is due, mostly to hard work and keeping my mind focused. The prevailing morality is the morality of slaves. Altruism sucks lemons. But.... what can we expect from neuro-typicals?

As the sci-fi author Theodore Sturgeon once postulated: 85 percent of everything is crap.

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skafather84
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29 Aug 2009, 11:29 am

ruveyn wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Again and again and again, you don't understand history. You understand war history in a very sloppy, plain manner but you don't understand the history of how people operate,

The bigger the lie, the more the people will believe it.

Edit: By the way, I love your line about slave morality and agree 100%. I just disagree with you on your view of how to treat imprisoned individuals as far as rehabbing them and making them to where they can get back out into society and serve some good.

ruveyn
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29 Aug 2009, 11:50 am

skafather84 wrote:

Edit: By the way, I love your line about slave morality and agree 100%. I just disagree with you on your view of how to treat imprisoned individuals as far as rehabbing them and making them to where they can get back out into society and serve some good.

Right! That Libyan piece of dung went home, was greeted as a hero and can teach other Libyans how to blow up commercial airline flights, before he expires of cancer.

ruveyn

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