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claire-333
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20 Sep 2009, 11:35 am

Sand wrote:
And that's precisely why I suggested in the original post that those companies doing the most planetary damage be targeted for public arousal.
I was thinking about this a bit more, and previous jokes aside, what result do you see being generated by targeting these companies? When I look at the damage from the production of plastics alone, I find it to be a problem so huge; I have trouble wrapping my mind around it. I guess I can assume there are companies who do more than others to try to lessen their toxic output, but the fact that plastics productions is extreemly and unavoidably detrimental to our enviornment still remains. It seems like it would be like trying to squash only the largest bugs of an infestation.



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20 Sep 2009, 11:43 am

claire333 wrote:
Sand wrote:
And that's precisely why I suggested in the original post that those companies doing the most planetary damage be targeted for public arousal.
I was thinking about this a bit more, and previous jokes aside, what result do you see being generated by targeting these companies? When I look at the damage from the production of plastics alone, I find it to be a problem so huge; I have trouble wrapping my mind around it. I guess I can assume there are companies who do more than others to try to lessen their toxic output, but the fact that plastics productions is extreemly and unavoidably detrimental to our enviornment still remains. It seems like it would be like trying to squash only the largest bugs of an infestation.


No doubt certain industries have more problems than others but the problems may be daunting but not insoluble when the stakes of not solving them are understood. Unfortunately, they must be solved. It is not, in the long run, a matter of choice.



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20 Sep 2009, 12:46 pm

Sand wrote:
Basically humanity is trashing the planet. If we don't stop we will all die. It is simple as that.
I agree; however I do not believe that humanity will ever stop.

Matthew wrote:
And unless those days were shortened no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened
You can cling to your faith that mankind will clean up the mess that he created, and you can even continue to sneer at those of us who have real hope. You are not hurting me though you may be hurting yourself.

I find it as difficult to understand how an intelligent and sane person can believe that man will ever change himself (without having a clue how,) as you have understanding how some of us can believe in a higher life form that can assist us if we want to change. But, to each his own.


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Sand
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20 Sep 2009, 1:00 pm

NC wrote

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I find it as difficult to understand how an intelligent and sane person can believe that man will ever change himself (without having a clue how,) as you have understanding how some of us can believe in a higher life form that can assist us if we want to change. But, to each his own.


Humanity has changed greatly in the last couple of hundred years. The Middle East and Africa is still full of people with the state of mind of the Middle Ages and the contrast is pretty stark between them and the west. But cell phones and computers are changing these people since they are mentally not in any way inferior to any other humans. But it is happening very slowly and it may speed up in time to save the planet. I still have hope.



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23 Sep 2009, 4:37 pm

claire333 wrote:
... businsesses are taking a green initiative to cut down on the amount of waste they contribute to landfills. My workplace does this and the greatest hurtle in our recycling efforts is our own people and the fact many simply do not care enought to be personally acountable for what they are throwing in the trash.

I have the same problem where I work. Our company goes through a lot of materials that come in cardboard boxes lined with plastic bags. The company spends nothing for trash bags and a lot of people take them home to use for that purpose. However, people seem to insist on putting the bags in the garbage cans and garbage in the bag collection boxes.

It is the same with the cardbord. After being flattened, the reuseable boxes are supposed to be put on one pallet and the others on another pallet where they are cut up and packed into large material boxes to be recylced. Not only do people put them on the wrong pallet, they also put garbage in the recycling boxes.

Of course, this could all be chalked up to laziness and thoughtlessness; however some might see it as evidence of evil spirits that are directing the destruction of this planet.


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Sand
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23 Sep 2009, 9:51 pm

NobelCynic wrote:
claire333 wrote:
... businsesses are taking a green initiative to cut down on the amount of waste they contribute to landfills. My workplace does this and the greatest hurtle in our recycling efforts is our own people and the fact many simply do not care enought to be personally acountable for what they are throwing in the trash.

I have the same problem where I work. Our company goes through a lot of materials that come in cardboard boxes lined with plastic bags. The company spends nothing for trash bags and a lot of people take them home to use for that purpose. However, people seem to insist on putting the bags in the garbage cans and garbage in the bag collection boxes.

It is the same with the cardbord. After being flattened, the reuseable boxes are supposed to be put on one pallet and the others on another pallet where they are cut up and packed into large material boxes to be recylced. Not only do people put them on the wrong pallet, they also put garbage in the recycling boxes.

Of course, this could all be chalked up to laziness and thoughtlessness; however some might see it as evidence of evil spirits that are directing the destruction of this planet.


Aah yes. Some. That "some" therefore invalidates all intelligent actions.



techstepgenr8tion
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23 Sep 2009, 10:20 pm

I tend to be optimistic on this - I believe that the technology will prevail, become cheaper and cheaper, and will become the standard soon after - for both the corporate level of this and the individual. For as much as the majority may not pay attention to who has green credentials with their factories (for most people without a lot of disposable income its cost first), there still are a percentage who will buy green on principle and look for green companies to purchase from. That, in the end, has green certifications acting more like a back-door rebate where by the cost of retooling is offset by perhapse a 5 - 10% increase in revenue, probably even tax breaks for the added green tech on top of it. In the end the green certification could be sitting on their books at an asset valued in the hundreds of millions, the trick is you have to be one of the companies leading the charge to get the full effect.



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24 Sep 2009, 12:16 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I tend to be optimistic on this - I believe that the technology will prevail, become cheaper and cheaper, and will become the standard soon after - for both the corporate level of this and the individual. For as much as the majority may not pay attention to who has green credentials with their factories (for most people without a lot of disposable income its cost first), there still are a percentage who will buy green on principle and look for green companies to purchase from. That, in the end, has green certifications acting more like a back-door rebate where by the cost of retooling is offset by perhapse a 5 - 10% increase in revenue, probably even tax breaks for the added green tech on top of it. In the end the green certification could be sitting on their books at an asset valued in the hundreds of millions, the trick is you have to be one of the companies leading the charge to get the full effect.


There is nothing comparable to faith when one is in search of peace of mind.



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24 Sep 2009, 6:43 am

Sand wrote:
There is nothing comparable to faith when one is in search of peace of mind.


Progression of technology is right in front of us, its tactile, its in the here and now. Just like most people would have a hard time arguing that computers won't be well more than twice as fast as they are now say seven or eight years from now. Green technology is still on the march forward as quickly as computer technology, that's why I have to argue that the tides are turning.



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24 Sep 2009, 8:15 am

Sustainability in the long run saves $$$ and promotes a healthy market. When a Mill is told not to dump toxins in a stream, it does not suggest they dump them somewhere else.. but clean up their process. Find environmentally friendlier alternatives to the toxic products they use.

85% of the mills in my area now generates their own energy by burning their waste. The air quality around the area is closely monitored. Glues, inks, and bleaching products used at local paper/box manufacturer are much more environmentally friendly then they were 10-20 years ago.

Many agricultural firms are using compost to provide fertilize their crops, moving away from harsh chemicals.

Building to LEED standards, will save a company big bucks on energy in the long run.
The problem arises when companies focus on short term gain, not long term sustainability. A strong quarter is now more important than the overall life of a company. The pirate attitude of take what you can and leave destruction behind has controlled business too long.



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24 Sep 2009, 12:22 pm

Oregon wrote:
Sustainability in the long run saves $$$ and promotes a healthy market. When a Mill is told not to dump toxins in a stream, it does not suggest they dump them somewhere else.. but clean up their process. Find environmentally friendlier alternatives to the toxic products they use.

85% of the mills in my area now generates their own energy by burning their waste. The air quality around the area is closely monitored. Glues, inks, and bleaching products used at local paper/box manufacturer are much more environmentally friendly then they were 10-20 years ago.

Many agricultural firms are using compost to provide fertilize their crops, moving away from harsh chemicals.

Building to LEED standards, will save a company big bucks on energy in the long run.
The problem arises when companies focus on short term gain, not long term sustainability. A strong quarter is now more important than the overall life of a company. The pirate attitude of take what you can and leave destruction behind has controlled business too long.


Agreed. It really is a win-win in the long run for all. There's and initial investment in the beginning, but over time the payout becomes huge, financially and environmentally.

I used to be a little lazy when it came to reducing, reusing, and recycling, until I really bothered to think it through. The most powerful statement that I ever heard on the matter was "when you throw something away, where do you think 'away' is?"

I'd also like to toss a little blame at the hippies. It took a long time for the public to disassociate "going green" with hairy and smelly armpits, granola, and dreadlocks. OK, so it's not really their fault, but even today "tree hugger" often has a negative conectation.



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24 Sep 2009, 1:06 pm

The problem as I see it is the INCREDIBLY slow way that "recycling" has become more the norm. I remember when I was a child there were campaigns to "Keep Britain Tidy", with logos on everything... collecting cans and sending them to Blue Peter so they could sell them to recycling companies for money for charity... biodegradable plastic bags... being asked to write about solutions for pollution.. and this is 25 years ago at least. In that 25 years it seems that crisp packets went from one kind of unrecyclable plastic to another more foily one, and they stoppped making "tin" cans. No idea what happened with the rest of it. Why did it take more than 25 years to work out aluminium recycling? Why is it that the local council STILL dont provide litter bins at reasonable interval.

Industrial-level recycling and anti-pollution measures are the only way to go. Domestic recycling is nice and all, but it amounts to such an infintessimal saving when placed on a global scale, and seems to be a way t force the guiilt of pollution on the average citizen, when in fact by far the larger force is industry, and Governments.


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24 Sep 2009, 3:23 pm

I rate green and non-green businesses the same way. By the price they charge for their goods or services and the quality of their product.

ruveyn



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02 Oct 2009, 5:02 pm

Sand wrote:
NobelCynic wrote:
claire333 wrote:
... businsesses are taking a green initiative to cut down on the amount of waste they contribute to landfills. My workplace does this and the greatest hurtle in our recycling efforts is our own people and the fact many simply do not care enought to be personally acountable for what they are throwing in the trash.

I have the same problem where I work. Our company goes through a lot of materials that come in cardboard boxes lined with plastic bags. The company spends nothing for trash bags and a lot of people take them home to use for that purpose. However, people seem to insist on putting the bags in the garbage cans and garbage in the bag collection boxes.

It is the same with the cardbord. After being flattened, the reuseable boxes are supposed to be put on one pallet and the others on another pallet where they are cut up and packed into large material boxes to be recylced. Not only do people put them on the wrong pallet, they also put garbage in the recycling boxes.

Of course, this could all be chalked up to laziness and thoughtlessness; however some might see it as evidence of evil spirits that are directing the destruction of this planet.


Aah yes. Some. That "some" therefore invalidates all intelligent actions.

I find it curious Sand, considering the number of times that you have mentioned the potential intelligence of the human race and the incredible stupitidy often shown in their behavior, that you would dismiss a hypothisis that might explain that for no reason other then to question the intelligence of the one that proposed it without proposing an alternative explanation.

How smart is that?


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Sand
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02 Oct 2009, 9:04 pm

NobelCynic wrote:
Sand wrote:
NobelCynic wrote:
claire333 wrote:
... businsesses are taking a green initiative to cut down on the amount of waste they contribute to landfills. My workplace does this and the greatest hurtle in our recycling efforts is our own people and the fact many simply do not care enought to be personally acountable for what they are throwing in the trash.

I have the same problem where I work. Our company goes through a lot of materials that come in cardboard boxes lined with plastic bags. The company spends nothing for trash bags and a lot of people take them home to use for that purpose. However, people seem to insist on putting the bags in the garbage cans and garbage in the bag collection boxes.

It is the same with the cardbord. After being flattened, the reuseable boxes are supposed to be put on one pallet and the others on another pallet where they are cut up and packed into large material boxes to be recylced. Not only do people put them on the wrong pallet, they also put garbage in the recycling boxes.

Of course, this could all be chalked up to laziness and thoughtlessness; however some might see it as evidence of evil spirits that are directing the destruction of this planet.


Aah yes. Some. That "some" therefore invalidates all intelligent actions.

I find it curious Sand, considering the number of times that you have mentioned the potential intelligence of the human race and the incredible stupitidy often shown in their behavior, that you would dismiss a hypothisis that might explain that for no reason other then to question the intelligence of the one that proposed it without proposing an alternative explanation.

How smart is that?


"Evil spirits" is a bit too naive for me to consider as anything but a vague fear of the unknown.



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07 Oct 2009, 3:37 pm

Sand wrote:
"Evil spirits" is a bit too naive for me to consider as anything but a vague fear of the unknown.

You may think it to be naive, but it could explain a few things.

The company I work for manufactures and distributes beverage syrups, and in our break room we have a coffee machine, a soda machine, a juice machine and even a machine that dispenses flavored waters; all free. The only thing provided to drink them from however, is styroform cups for the coffee and plastic cups for the cold drinks. I try to reuse mine but find it nearly impossible; I have gone so far as trying to hide them until I want another drink, but somebody always finds it and throws it in the garbage.

How do you explain this? This goes beyond lazyness and thoughtlessness because the lazy and thoughtless thing to do would be to leave it there. Sometimes people do what they would do if their objective was to cause as much damage to the planet as they can.


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