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zer0netgain
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01 Oct 2009, 9:50 am

Sand wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
Biased study.

Having been trained as a police officer, I can tell you that owning a firearm and not knowing how to properly care, store and use it means it's more of a danger than a help to you.

However, for those properly trained (which isn't all that much training), a firearm does make a huge difference. The problem is that most people who go out and buy a firearm don't get trained in how to properly care, store and use it.

In the country or in the city, a firearm is the great equalizer. All other means of self defense depend on ability and skill to have any success. A firearm, with minimal training, can empower the 75-pound grandmother to take down a 250-pound burglar in her home.


Considering regular news reports of presumably well trained but panicky police shooting forty or so bullets into an unarmed man attempting to display his wallet I am not particularly consoled at the thought of a gun wielding 75 pound hysterical grandma waving a pistol at the postman, even if he is black.


Well, that's a separate issue of the quality of who we allow to become police officers and the lack of monitoring when they need to be pulled from the street because they're no longer mentally stable. Lots of people get a badge, gun and arrest powers who really are unfit for the job.



Sand
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01 Oct 2009, 10:58 am

zer0netgain wrote:
Sand wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
Biased study.

Having been trained as a police officer, I can tell you that owning a firearm and not knowing how to properly care, store and use it means it's more of a danger than a help to you.

However, for those properly trained (which isn't all that much training), a firearm does make a huge difference. The problem is that most people who go out and buy a firearm don't get trained in how to properly care, store and use it.

In the country or in the city, a firearm is the great equalizer. All other means of self defense depend on ability and skill to have any success. A firearm, with minimal training, can empower the 75-pound grandmother to take down a 250-pound burglar in her home.


Considering regular news reports of presumably well trained but panicky police shooting forty or so bullets into an unarmed man attempting to display his wallet I am not particularly consoled at the thought of a gun wielding 75 pound hysterical grandma waving a pistol at the postman, even if he is black.




Well, that's a separate issue of the quality of who we allow to become police officers and the lack of monitoring when they need to be pulled from the street because they're no longer mentally stable. Lots of people get a badge, gun and arrest powers who really are unfit for the job.


And 75 lb hysterical grandmas are?



zer0netgain
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01 Oct 2009, 11:13 am

Sand wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
Sand wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
Biased study.

Having been trained as a police officer, I can tell you that owning a firearm and not knowing how to properly care, store and use it means it's more of a danger than a help to you.

However, for those properly trained (which isn't all that much training), a firearm does make a huge difference. The problem is that most people who go out and buy a firearm don't get trained in how to properly care, store and use it.

In the country or in the city, a firearm is the great equalizer. All other means of self defense depend on ability and skill to have any success. A firearm, with minimal training, can empower the 75-pound grandmother to take down a 250-pound burglar in her home.


Considering regular news reports of presumably well trained but panicky police shooting forty or so bullets into an unarmed man attempting to display his wallet I am not particularly consoled at the thought of a gun wielding 75 pound hysterical grandma waving a pistol at the postman, even if he is black.




Well, that's a separate issue of the quality of who we allow to become police officers and the lack of monitoring when they need to be pulled from the street because they're no longer mentally stable. Lots of people get a badge, gun and arrest powers who really are unfit for the job.


And 75 lb hysterical grandmas are?


Touche.

However, there is a huge difference between the 75 lb hysterical grandma who shoots an intruder in her home and the "trained professional" who panics at the sight of an object, assumes the worst, and ventilates the guy where he stands.



MissConstrue
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01 Oct 2009, 1:34 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
Biased study.

Having been trained as a police officer, I can tell you that owning a firearm and not knowing how to properly care, store and use it means it's more of a danger than a help to you.

However, for those properly trained (which isn't all that much training), a firearm does make a huge difference. The problem is that most people who go out and buy a firearm don't get trained in how to properly care, store and use it.

In the country or in the city, a firearm is the great equalizer. All other means of self defense depend on ability and skill to have any success. A firearm, with minimal training, can empower the 75-pound grandmother to take down a 250-pound burglar in her home.


QFT.

My uncle loved guns but he mostly collected them rather than use them as a means of defense.

Not sure of the whole story but the fatal accident was the result of him using a loaded gun he had no knoweledge of.

As far as the midwest, not sure what the majority's issue is on guns these days. My family believes that if the law banned guns, the crimes wouldn't be as traumatic or high. However my grandparents were very strong gun supporters. I wasn't so much of a gun supporter but had a fascination for them. Use to use them in target practice. Once I purchased one, it didn't take but a year until I found it missing. A couple of years later, I got one for my birthday and someone had broken into my room and of course it went missing. But anyway it's amazing how crazy gun lovers are about their guns. I decided out of my dad's constant nagging and my "ill luck" with them not to own one. Whenever the issue of self defense is raised, I just carry around a cell phone and a sharp object if it should ever come to that and it almost has before....


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Last edited by MissConstrue on 01 Oct 2009, 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sand
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01 Oct 2009, 1:44 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
Sand wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
Sand wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
Biased study.

Having been trained as a police officer, I can tell you that owning a firearm and not knowing how to properly care, store and use it means it's more of a danger than a help to you.

However, for those properly trained (which isn't all that much training), a firearm does make a huge difference. The problem is that most people who go out and buy a firearm don't get trained in how to properly care, store and use it.

In the country or in the city, a firearm is the great equalizer. All other means of self defense depend on ability and skill to have any success. A firearm, with minimal training, can empower the 75-pound grandmother to take down a 250-pound burglar in her home.


Considering regular news reports of presumably well trained but panicky police shooting forty or so bullets into an unarmed man attempting to display his wallet I am not particularly consoled at the thought of a gun wielding 75 pound hysterical grandma waving a pistol at the postman, even if he is black.




Well, that's a separate issue of the quality of who we allow to become police officers and the lack of monitoring when they need to be pulled from the street because they're no longer mentally stable. Lots of people get a badge, gun and arrest powers who really are unfit for the job.


And 75 lb hysterical grandmas are?


Touche.

However, there is a huge difference between the 75 lb hysterical grandma who shoots an intruder in her home and the "trained professional" who panics at the sight of an object, assumes the worst, and ventilates the guy where he stands.



What it boils down to is that, as gun proponents always say, guns don't kill people, people do. Right. So why give guns to people?



skafather84
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01 Oct 2009, 1:48 pm

Sand wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
Sand wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
Sand wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
Biased study.

Having been trained as a police officer, I can tell you that owning a firearm and not knowing how to properly care, store and use it means it's more of a danger than a help to you.

However, for those properly trained (which isn't all that much training), a firearm does make a huge difference. The problem is that most people who go out and buy a firearm don't get trained in how to properly care, store and use it.

In the country or in the city, a firearm is the great equalizer. All other means of self defense depend on ability and skill to have any success. A firearm, with minimal training, can empower the 75-pound grandmother to take down a 250-pound burglar in her home.


Considering regular news reports of presumably well trained but panicky police shooting forty or so bullets into an unarmed man attempting to display his wallet I am not particularly consoled at the thought of a gun wielding 75 pound hysterical grandma waving a pistol at the postman, even if he is black.




Well, that's a separate issue of the quality of who we allow to become police officers and the lack of monitoring when they need to be pulled from the street because they're no longer mentally stable. Lots of people get a badge, gun and arrest powers who really are unfit for the job.


And 75 lb hysterical grandmas are?


Touche.

However, there is a huge difference between the 75 lb hysterical grandma who shoots an intruder in her home and the "trained professional" who panics at the sight of an object, assumes the worst, and ventilates the guy where he stands.



What it boils down to is that, as gun proponents always say, guns don't kill people, people do. Right. So why give guns to people?


Population control, because they're too stupid to wear condoms and use birth control methods.


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zer0netgain
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01 Oct 2009, 2:33 pm

Sand wrote:
What it boils down to is that, as gun proponents always say, guns don't kill people, people do. Right. So why give guns to people?


For the very fact that every nation that imposes strict gun control has an explosion of violent crime because even if the criminals are denied guns, they will still prey on the defenseless, and as I pointed out, guns are an equalizer. You can take on someone twice your size and 10 times your fighting skill if you have a gun and know how to use it properly. Take away the gun and you'd better be a better and stronger fighter than your assailant.

You won't stop people from doing violence to one another by banning the tools they chose to employ. You're treating a 2nd or 3rd stage symptom, not the problem.



skafather84
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01 Oct 2009, 2:34 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
Sand wrote:
What it boils down to is that, as gun proponents always say, guns don't kill people, people do. Right. So why give guns to people?


For the very fact that every nation that imposes strict gun control has an explosion of violent crime because even if the criminals are denied guns, they will still prey on the defenseless, and as I pointed out, guns are an equalizer



Can you present some kind of proof for that claim?


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Cyanide
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01 Oct 2009, 2:40 pm

If you ban guns, the criminals will still get them. If the normal citizen doesn't have a gun, because of their illegality, it'll lower the risk of committing crime. What will that result in? More crime of course!

Honestly, if you were a thief, would you rather break into somebody's house if guns are banned, or if guns are legal?



skafather84
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01 Oct 2009, 2:42 pm

Cyanide wrote:
If you ban guns, the criminals will still get them. If the normal citizen doesn't have a gun, because of their illegality, it'll lower the risk of committing crime. What will that result in? More crime of course!

Honestly, if you were a thief, would you rather break into somebody's house if guns are banned, or if guns are legal?



The idea being if they're not readily available, they won't be readily available to most petty criminals either and reduce the severity of injury and frequency of death. Also will take guns out of the hands of irresponsible gun owners.

Again: do you have any proof for your claim? From looking at stats for Japan, England, Germany....there seems to be no drastic wave of gun violence.


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01 Oct 2009, 2:57 pm

Cyanide wrote:


Quote:
Honestly, if you were a thief, would you rather break into somebody's house if guns are banned, or if guns are legal?


Well it's happened to me even though they're legal here...


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01 Oct 2009, 2:58 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Can you present some kind of proof for that claim?


Here's a quick and dirty:

Image

There's much more out there too, this particular graph shows the massive spike in crime in the UK following the 1997 handgun ban, Australia's crime spike is also well documented but I don't feel like digging it up right at the moment. Notice that this is the UK Home Office's own graph BTW, not some sketchy website with an agenda's.


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skafather84
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01 Oct 2009, 3:10 pm

Dox47 wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Can you present some kind of proof for that claim?


Here's a quick and dirty:

Image

There's much more out there too, this particular graph shows the massive spike in crime in the UK following the 1997 handgun ban, Australia's crime spike is also well documented but I don't feel like digging it up right at the moment. Notice that this is the UK Home Office's own graph BTW, not some sketchy website with an agenda's.


Better detail.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb0308.pdf


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01 Oct 2009, 3:15 pm

Anywhere were they guns specifically hand guns gun crime goes up. Look at DC and Chicago.



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01 Oct 2009, 5:04 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Anywhere were they guns specifically hand guns gun crime goes up. Look at DC and Chicago.

Handguns are banned in Chicago and were in DC up until a year ago.


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01 Oct 2009, 5:32 pm

That study includes lots of firearm assaults where the victim never had a chance to draw a gun... or mace or a taser for that matter. It comes down to those people weren't watching their surroundings and let smeone get a chance to draw down on them before there was a threat. That is a problem with a lack of training. This report includes lot of gang shootings where the person carrying the gun has little if any experience shooting a gun. This report also includes people who left their gun in the car and didn't have it with them when they were shot. This study leaves out a lot of factors in order to draw a particular conclusion.

Here's a study that can cite it's sources, including the CDC, FBI, ATF, and DOJ:
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=206&issue=007


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