Religion, Spirituality and Science – my perspective

Page 2 of 3 [ 44 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

TallyMan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,061

01 Jan 2010, 7:23 pm

zena4 wrote:
May I ask you where it was when you where a Buddhist monk TallyMan?
Did it last long enough to vow or something to be one of them?
Was it long ago?


I was 18 at the time, in between dropping out of university then dropping back in again.
It is a bit complicated, I was there for just over a year and I went through a simple initiation ceremony after around 8 months or so. I left because I didn't find what I was looking for. Thirty years later and I realise I was asking the wrong questions. The problem isn't the lack of an answer, it is the lack of asking the right questions. :D


_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.


zena4
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jan 2009
Age: 64
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,054

16 Jan 2010, 11:46 am

Oh, thanks for your answer TallyMan!
I didn't see it before, didn't get a e-mail to warn me and didn't see a second page when I first checked :? :)

One full year is already a lot, to live that kind of life (in my opinion).
And it's true for the questions: not always easy to find the right ones.



techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,487
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi

16 Jan 2010, 4:31 pm

From the point I'm now finding myself - full determinism, I'm starting to come to grips will the consequences of what that really means. To me, it seems to lend itself - at this point - to there being a spiritual component to us, very likely life hereafter, and likely there being a God though I can't say for certain. My main reason being self-aware consciousness, technically if there were no 'me' controlling the levers in this mind and body the life of my vessel would go on exactly as it does - just like a computer functions just fine without the need of having a first person consciousness I would not need it either, yet its there - regardless of whether its captive of a body that exists within space time and existing within space time I think necessarily crushes the concept of free will just by how space time sets things up.

What I don't know is where 'I' was before this, I know that my identity (assuming its spiritual) cannot be my vessel as my vessel again exists within space-time where as my spirit is only tied to it rather then necessarily being an artifact thereof. Therefor I would assume that I picked this body and this life for a reason, I didn't have to - no one did, it just worked out like this. What I don't know, just like no one can know this outside of their own empirical experience of self - is whether or not all sentient beings have souls, perhaps the majority, perhaps just a small handful; to me the answer to that is irrelevant, for practical purposes I need to assume its all people simply because I see no available evidence against that. Then again I know that many strong atheists would claim that ultimately having a first person awareness doesn't have to mean anything at all - I agree that its there but, just like answering abiogenesis as it's just pure chance isn't really accepted by the scientific community because its something of a cop-out answer, I tend to find that answer for consciousness (outside of the pure mechanical sense of the body and mind) equally short of the mark - a purely physiological answer may be available one of these days but still, my impression of the universe is that its just too elegant to be corked and bottled quite like that, my hunch being that there almost has to be much more than what we can sense, see, or scientifically detect at this point. I guess I while I can't call my view true certainty, nor would I wish to, I'd call it a strong intuition in this direction.


_________________
The loneliest part of life: it's not just that no one is on your cloud, few can even see your cloud.


Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

17 Jan 2010, 2:39 am

TallyMan wrote:
Who am I
Another of the big questions is “Who am I”?
As a child it was clear to me that “my body” was where “I” lived. In other words I’m not the body. Remove my brain and put it into another body and the sense of “I” would be moved along with the brain. So am I the brain? What is the relation between the brain and the mind? Is there such a thing as a soul?

Science has provided a particularly valuable insight into the brain / mind / consciousness / soul debate that is well worth mentioning here. Some people have a severe form of epilepsy. This is like an electrical storm in the brain that can spread across the whole brain incapacitating the individual. The brain consists of two hemispheres with a narrow bundle of nerves connecting the two halves together (called the corpus callosum). To minimise the effects of epileptic attacks a number of people have had their corpus callosum completely severed. This surgery prevents an epileptic attack spreading to the other hemisphere. However, this drastic cutting of the brain into two halves has the effect of cutting the person into two! There are two streams of consciousness, each with its own personality, thought processes, memories and abilities that were stored in that half of the brain prior to the separation! One person has become two, each making their own decisions. Each “person” doesn’t know what the other is thinking about or knows. There are numerous articles on the subject. One link is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-brain this of course raises big questions about what it means to be an individual. If a soul exists it implies a scalpel can cut it into two!

Investigation into the sense of self
So what is this sense of individuality - the feeling of “I”? Philosophers exchange lots of dry words on the subject but fail to leave anyone better informed. Similarly, scientists measure brain wave activity and can associate certain parts of the brain with certain aspects of mental functioning. While this is interesting it remains abstract. However, there is another more hands on way to investigate consciousness:

To give a little example, consider an apple. Philosophers could hold endless discussions about the merits of certain varieties of apples and their histories. Scientists can analyse apples and give you detailed information about their proteins, carbohydrates and mineral content. My personal investigation of an apple is to taste it. Neither philosophers nor scientists can convey to me what an apple tastes like.
There is no separate consciousness watching things. Consciousness and the thing perceived are like the two sides of a coin. Consciousness is always “of something” but never “by something”. It is not “my” consciousness, just consciousness. The idea of a separate individual “I” dissolves, it is just a fabrication, an abstraction of the mind.

Where does this observable feeling of “I” come from?
To communicate it is necessary to use words like “you”, “me” and “I”. Logically speculating now based on what I’ve perceived during deep meditation. I think this illusion of “I” is a normal function of the brain. It is a label that has evolved in the brain of humans – and probably most other animals.
Having a concept of self is a handy label for the brain to use to distinguish the particular human/animal it belongs to from other humans / animals or objects in the environment. Having an “I” label is useful for planning actions. “I” am hungry. “I” will go to the kitchen and “I” will get some food.
The brain has built up a massive number of rules on how to interact with other people and in particular circumstances. The common name given to the mass of rules is simply “personality”.

I don’t exist!
The bottom line is that there is no “I”; it is simply an abstraction created by the brain, a label. My real essence is consciousness itself. Your real essence is consciousness. The consciousness illuminates all the thoughts, feelings and emotions that occur in each brain. The accumulation of memories in the brain gives a storyline and a seeming continuity to idea of an “I” in each brain. Ever wonder why you were born as you? You weren’t! Consciousness makes each brain think it is the one and only “I”.

Hindus have a good analogy of this. Think of an ocean. At the bottom of this ocean are millions of jars, cups and other (open) vessels. The water flows freely in and out of these containers but it takes the shape of each container while inside. Consciousness is the ocean; each vessel is a person. Consciousness looks out of each individuals eyes and believes it is that particular person.

What is this consciousness? Is it an emergent property associated only with brains? I don’t know. Hindu’s say that this consciousness is God. Again I don’t know. The word “God” has been used and abused in so many different ways that it has no specific meaning for me.

Shift in perception
This awareness of the illusory nature of “I” has changed “my” perception of the world and everyone in it. There is often the feeling of not being separate from any other living beings on the planet. On the television news I see a Palestinian woman grieving over the death of her son, and I am that woman; the news article continues and there is a Jewish mother grieving over the loss of her soldier son, and I am that woman. My dog nudges my arm and looks at me longingly to be taken a walk, and I am that dog.


I just noticed this. (had to use that strange word again) and yeah.... actually I agree with you that I do not exist. It's strange too, how something so tautological eventually collapsed in a mangled heap like it did, but underneath there is no reason to believe that something coherent underlying the matter exists.

I don't end up having the same shift in perception that you did though. Instead of in touch with other beings, I feel alienated from myself. What appeared rock-solid instead seems ephemeral. Others seem more alien given that they don't exist either. Perhaps I came upon this truth wrong, but I will admit that I have no love for meditation or anything where I have to be at rest.



Magnus
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,372
Location: Claremont, California

18 Jan 2010, 11:22 am

AG, you can meditate while exercising or dancing.

Tallyman, what are your thoughts on the collective unconscious?

Quote:
Jung adds the part of the psyche that makes his theory stand out from all others: the collective unconscious. You could call it your "psychic inheritance." It is the reservoir of our experiences as a species, a kind of knowledge we are all born with. And yet we can never be directly conscious of it. It influences all of our experiences and behaviors, most especially the emotional ones, but we only know about it indirectly, by looking at those influences.

There are some experiences that show the effects of the collective unconscious more clearly than others: The experiences of love at first sight, of deja vu (the feeling that you've been here before), and the immediate recognition of certain symbols and the meanings of certain myths, could all be understood as the sudden conjunction of our outer reality and the inner reality of the collective unconscious. Grander examples are the creative experiences shared by artists and musicians all over the world and in all times, or the spiritual experiences of mystics of all religions, or the parallels in dreams, fantasies, mythologies, fairy tales, and literature.

A nice example that has been greatly discussed recently is the near-death experience. It seems that many people, of many different cultural backgrounds, find that they have very similar recollections when they are brought back from a close encounter with death. They speak of leaving their bodies, seeing their bodies and the events surrounding them clearly, of being pulled through a long tunnel towards a bright light, of seeing deceased relatives or religious figures waiting for them, and of their disappointment at having to leave this happy scene to return to their bodies. Perhaps we are all "built" to experience death in this fashion.


_________________
As long as man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower living beings he will never know health or peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other.

-Pythagoras


Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 98
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

18 Jan 2010, 11:41 am

Magnus wrote:
AG, you can meditate while exercising or dancing.

Tallyman, what are your thoughts on the collective unconscious?

Quote:
Jung adds the part of the psyche that makes his theory stand out from all others: the collective unconscious. You could call it your "psychic inheritance." It is the reservoir of our experiences as a species, a kind of knowledge we are all born with. And yet we can never be directly conscious of it. It influences all of our experiences and behaviors, most especially the emotional ones, but we only know about it indirectly, by looking at those influences.

There are some experiences that show the effects of the collective unconscious more clearly than others: The experiences of love at first sight, of deja vu (the feeling that you've been here before), and the immediate recognition of certain symbols and the meanings of certain myths, could all be understood as the sudden conjunction of our outer reality and the inner reality of the collective unconscious. Grander examples are the creative experiences shared by artists and musicians all over the world and in all times, or the spiritual experiences of mystics of all religions, or the parallels in dreams, fantasies, mythologies, fairy tales, and literature.

If that's the depth that Jung reaches he is an exceedingly shallow thinker.
A nice example that has been greatly discussed recently is the near-death experience. It seems that many people, of many different cultural backgrounds, find that they have very similar recollections when they are brought back from a close encounter with death. They speak of leaving their bodies, seeing their bodies and the events surrounding them clearly, of being pulled through a long tunnel towards a bright light, of seeing deceased relatives or religious figures waiting for them, and of their disappointment at having to leave this happy scene to return to their bodies. Perhaps we are all "built" to experience death in this fashion.



If that's the depth that Jung reaches he's an exceedingly shallow thinker.



Woodfish
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 382
Location: alternating between Lothlórien and Rivendell

19 Jan 2010, 9:10 am

Magnus wrote:
Tallyman, what are your thoughts on the collective unconscious?



i felt i wanted to explain why Jung (and the collective unconscious) matters so much to me, personally. but now i feel it is getting too complex.

to me Jung is a mystic. if mystics generally appeal to you you migh tlike Jung too. otherwise maybe not.


_________________
If we concentrate on accepting ourselves, change will happen. It will take care of itself. Self-acceptance is so hard to get you can't do it a day at a time. I've found that I need to run my life five minutes at a time. --Jess Lair


Woodfish
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 382
Location: alternating between Lothlórien and Rivendell

19 Jan 2010, 9:13 am

i really like the OP, Tallyman! Thanks! this appealed to me a lot for instance:

TallyMan wrote:
It is not “my” consciousness, just consciousness.


Consciousness is truly fascinating stuff.


_________________
If we concentrate on accepting ourselves, change will happen. It will take care of itself. Self-acceptance is so hard to get you can't do it a day at a time. I've found that I need to run my life five minutes at a time. --Jess Lair


Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

19 Jan 2010, 10:27 am

Magnus wrote:
AG, you can meditate while exercising or dancing.

The problem is that silencing my head would require an assassination.



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 98
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

19 Jan 2010, 10:30 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Magnus wrote:
AG, you can meditate while exercising or dancing.

The problem is that silencing my head would require an assassination.


Or a few stiff shots of vodka.



Magnus
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,372
Location: Claremont, California

19 Jan 2010, 10:35 am

Alcohol won't help you meditate.

I think you have to pray for grace. Don't laugh. That is what works for me. If I pray and let go of trying to control my thoughts, sometimes it feels like I have been graced with peace and calmness. That is when I can focus and relax. Trying to think things through when the mind is racy is pointless.


_________________
As long as man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower living beings he will never know health or peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other.

-Pythagoras


sartresue
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Age: 70
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,313
Location: The Castle of Shock and Awe-tism

19 Jan 2010, 10:43 am

Hungry I topic

Consciousness is the I. As soon as I was aware of my existence (around age two to three years of age) I have had memories. I do not confuse my self with others, though I do care about them (the crisis in Haiti is on my mind right now). Those people are hungry and thirsty, and I know they need food, water and shelter). The stench of human bodies terrifies and nauseates the survivors. At least 70,000 of them, at last count, need to be buried. In death there is no longer any consciousness, though it is undignified to let them rot in the open, and the huge numbers mean they will not all be buried all at once.

I do not think the I is a metaphor, a convenient 'fiction' to identify oneself as distinct from over 6 billion other Is (plural of I). I think this is real. I do not believe in some meta-I to explain my I, and the fact that I can analyze my own I means I am aware of it and my own existence.

If Tallyman, AG and others are comfortable with the fact of the non-existence of their Is, then this is fine with my I. I am not their Is.

I have spoken. :twisted:


_________________
Radiant Aspergian
Awe-Tistic Whirlwind

Phuture Phounder of the Philosophy Phactory

NOT a believer of Mystic Woo-Woo


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

19 Jan 2010, 1:39 pm

Spirituality is bullsh*t.

ruveyn



Magnus
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,372
Location: Claremont, California

19 Jan 2010, 1:44 pm

Spiritual hallucinations which bring about faith in a specific outcome has been reported to create miracles. It is worthy of investigation.

http://www.psych.uiuc.edu/~bhidalgo/litreview.htm


_________________
As long as man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower living beings he will never know health or peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other.

-Pythagoras


Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 98
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

19 Jan 2010, 8:20 pm

Magnus wrote:
Spiritual hallucinations which bring about faith in a specific outcome has been reported to create miracles. It is worthy of investigation.

http://www.psych.uiuc.edu/~bhidalgo/litreview.htm


All sorts of things are reported in those little newspapers you can pick up at the supermarket. As one matures, one deals with them sensibly.



Magnus
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,372
Location: Claremont, California

19 Jan 2010, 8:43 pm

Are you kidding me? Have you read that synopsis of academic research?

Here are some more links about meditation on the brain.

http://www.dmoz.org/Science/Social_Scie ... otheology/

Quote:
In d'Aquili's model, religious experience is self-induced through meditation. Thus the process must begin with intense concentration that is mediated by the prefrontal cortex, especially the lateral convexity. He offers as support for his model data from Corby (1978) who did a study on a meditating subject with a self reported religious experience. The research showed large amounts of high amplitude alpha and theta waves during the religious experience especially in the prefrontal and parietal areas.

Quote:
Arnold Mandell's research also provides an explanation for meditative states and their neuropsychological ability to induce religious or mystical states. He notes that meditation is speculated to silence serotonin cells and perhaps the reticular-septal circuit by removing sensory driving. d'Aquili's model lends support to this hypothesis, of serotonin inhibitory functions being suspended, by arguing that functional deafferantation caused by the conscious effort in the prefrontal cortex is responsible for allowing cells in the temporal lobe (the amygdala) to fire according to their own internal logic. By removing the regulatory input derived from the reticular formation passed along to sensory collaterals, the "inside world" dominates. This, he posits, will result in a loss of comparator function. He hypothesizes that with a lack of comparative function to provide a source of reference a sense of the "I" is lost. He further hypothesizes that this lost sense of the "I" and a loss of comparator functions will result in the dissolution of dualistic debates and conflicts. Feelings and perceptions of unity will take over.


_________________
As long as man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower living beings he will never know health or peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other.

-Pythagoras