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Capital Punishment, what are your views on it?

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Orwell
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03 Jan 2010, 12:28 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
I am totally opposed to capital punishment, but then I am opposed to our present penal system as a whole. I believe that prison should be used only for those who cannot safely live in free society e.g serial killers serial arsonists, paedophiles, serial rapists . This most likely means life imprisonment for those who fit this criteria, any one else convicted of a crime gets very severe community based orders, or a means tested fine

^More or less what he said.

The entire notion of a retribution-based justice system is a barbaric holdover from more primitive times. We need to move to a system of rehabilitation of the criminal and restitution for the victim.


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03 Jan 2010, 12:33 am

Orwell wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
I am totally opposed to capital punishment, but then I am opposed to our present penal system as a whole. I believe that prison should be used only for those who cannot safely live in free society e.g serial killers serial arsonists, paedophiles, serial rapists . This most likely means life imprisonment for those who fit this criteria, any one else convicted of a crime gets very severe community based orders, or a means tested fine

^More or less what he said.

The entire notion of a retribution-based justice system is a barbaric holdover from more primitive times. We need to move to a system of rehabilitation of the criminal and restitution for the victim.


Although I agree completely with the intent science simply does not know enough about how people work and think to solve this problem satisfactorily. A major revision of the legal and criminal system requires a major upgrade in knowledge of social behavior.



techstepgenr8tion
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03 Jan 2010, 12:36 am

I don't even see it as necessarily an issue of retribution - if someone has made a career of murder, rape, etc. - its just liquidating human beings who've drawn such a distance between themselves and any potential for their own humanity that they'll never get it back. In that sense it seems like there's little point in keeping them around.



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03 Jan 2010, 12:52 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I don't even see it as necessarily an issue of retribution - if someone has made a career of murder, rape, etc. - its just liquidating human beings who've drawn such a distance between themselves and any potential for their own humanity that they'll never get it back. In that sense it seems like there's little point in keeping them around.


Out of curiousity, do you apply this notion (which I find abhorent) to collectives (i.e. societies that have disintegrated into barbarism and disregard for human life)?



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03 Jan 2010, 12:53 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
I am for capital punishment for all serious crimes.


Define serous crime.

I am totally opposed to capital punishment, but then I am opposed to our present penal system as a whole. I believe that prison should be used only for those who cannot safely live in free society e.g serial killers serial arsonists, paedophiles, serial rapists . This most likely means life imprisonment for those who fit this criteria, any one else convicted of a crime gets very severe community based orders, or a means tested fine


My opinion on this matter is really very strong. And I totally agree with Dent.

I'd also like to add that we have all experienced occasions where we change our mind. The very nature of the mind is that it is capable of change, it's a non-static thing. And the same possibility exists for those who have committed even the most heinous of crimes. To deprive them of this opportunity, and life itself (which is the one thing we value above all else) is so wrong I can't even describe it in words. And I have no words to describe how appalled I am that there are people who think this is an acceptable practice.


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techstepgenr8tion
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03 Jan 2010, 1:10 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
Out of curiousity, do you apply this notion (which I find abhorent) to collectives (i.e. societies that have disintegrated into barbarism and disregard for human life)?

Do you have any examples?



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03 Jan 2010, 1:10 am

AutisticMalcontent wrote:
I honesty believe now that the electric chair is cruel and unusual....

And yet:
AutisticMalcontent wrote:
I have read that a lot of criminals have said that they would rather die than have life imprisonment. True, depriving one of their life does ensure that they won't commit another crime. However, I consider it psychologically crueler to make a criminal spend the rest of their life in a cell without parole. Think how lonely that would be, they probably would go a little mad too.?

So you oppose death by electrocution because it is "cruel and unusual punishment," yet you would support life imprisonment without the possibility of parole because it's crueler than the death penalty?



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03 Jan 2010, 1:19 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Out of curiousity, do you apply this notion (which I find abhorent) to collectives (i.e. societies that have disintegrated into barbarism and disregard for human life)?

Do you have any examples?


The Third Reich



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03 Jan 2010, 1:22 am

And another thing - if the government is allowing this as a way to seek retribution for the families of victims then they are governing by emotion rather than reason. It's one thing for the victims to become irrational and vengeful because they are hurting - but it is the job of a government to stay rational by making a clear distinction between right and wrong. If killing is found to be wrong then why the heck are they using it in a system of justice?! !! !! It's entirely hypocritical!! !


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03 Jan 2010, 1:23 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Out of curiousity, do you apply this notion (which I find abhorent) to collectives (i.e. societies that have disintegrated into barbarism and disregard for human life)?

Do you have any examples?


The Third Reich


Would you have preferred to put all of Germany in jail rather than treat it has it has been treated?



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03 Jan 2010, 1:27 am

Sand wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Out of curiousity, do you apply this notion (which I find abhorent) to collectives (i.e. societies that have disintegrated into barbarism and disregard for human life)?

Do you have any examples?


The Third Reich


Would you have preferred to put all of Germany in jail rather than treat it has it has been treated?


No -that would have been moronically impracticable. But would the extermination of - lets say - 88% of the nation been justified? Would grander damange to the Nazi-governed German state been morally exemplary or obligatory - more executions of the complacent population -been justified because Germany chose to distance itself from the rest of humanity?

This isn't the best example. Tommorrow, if I'm less tired, I'll think of another society - perhaps more pre-industrial - that's sank to such depths.



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03 Jan 2010, 1:34 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Out of curiousity, do you apply this notion (which I find abhorent) to collectives (i.e. societies that have disintegrated into barbarism and disregard for human life)?

Do you have any examples?


Hutu villages in the Rwandan Genocide
Serb villages in the Kosovo War



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03 Jan 2010, 1:37 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
Sand wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Out of curiousity, do you apply this notion (which I find abhorent) to collectives (i.e. societies that have disintegrated into barbarism and disregard for human life)?

Do you have any examples?


The Third Reich


Would you have preferred to put all of Germany in jail rather than treat it has it has been treated?


No -that would have been moronically impracticable. But would the extermination of - lets say - 88% of the nation been justified? Would grander damange to the Nazi-governed German state been morally exemplary or obligatory - more executions of the complacent population -been justified because Germany chose to distance itself from the rest of humanity?

This isn't the best example. Tommorrow, if I'm less tired, I'll think of another society - perhaps more pre-industrial - that's sank to such depths.


And what do you think of the USA and its allies in the Middle East that treats "collateral damage" so casually that it wipes out over a million people with, without doubt. an overwhelming number of totally innocent people included?



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03 Jan 2010, 1:46 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
The Third Reich

In the case of the third reich I think they dealt with it exactly as they should have, try those who committed direct and deliberate acts of barbarism for war crimes, realize that the average citizen likely was either kept out in the dark or was to afraid to speak up with a contrary opinion, and even many if not most in the armed services were swept up in the maelstrom - either they didn't know what they were fighting for or they were dealing with a bit of Stockholm syndrome from their own government's psychosis. Most people weren't as sick or twisted as those at the top and the handful of psychopaths that gravitated to certain positions that they were custom fit for.

In general my view on capital punishment extends to individuals who've made choices, know the consequences, and were fine with it - no one forced their hand. Admittedly I'm not a believer in free will but at the same time its a matter that actions have consequence, the universe sets the rules in play, we have to deal with those rules to the best of our ability. Of course the later action is never something to be taken lightly - not all murders would be worthy of death sentence, particularly where a reasonable person could have slipped into a similar dilemma (ie. a situation where the victim coerced the action through blackmail, death threats, etc.). Situations are all different, as well as the people involved, and it needs to be read out in a court of law by the merits of the situation.



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03 Jan 2010, 1:50 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
Hutu villages in the Rwandan Genocide
Serb villages in the Kosovo War


No, in both cases it would be great if a strong peace keeping force made sure to shift the social paradigm out of the gutter and similarly taking war criminals the organizing thugs off to the Hague (or a ditch). Societies are a bit more easily rehabilitated, especially since social norms are in no one person's control and changing them can make a big difference (though also, admittedly, if one wants to change such social norms they need to intimately acquaint themselves with that people's history - much of it usually going back long before the time of those participating but still being something that echoes upward from ripples set in motion generations ago).



Last edited by techstepgenr8tion on 03 Jan 2010, 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

techstepgenr8tion
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03 Jan 2010, 1:52 am

Sand wrote:
And what do you think of the USA and its allies in the Middle East that treats "collateral damage" so casually that it wipes out over a million people with, without doubt. an overwhelming number of totally innocent people included?

I'd be amazed if you aren't preaching to the choir with this one.