Faith/God/Prayer...genetic, maybe?

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Orwell
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22 Jan 2010, 6:41 pm

leejosepho wrote:

So then, a scientist might just simply ignore any statement from anyone suggesting any kind of supernatural connection or "predisposition for religious or spiritual thinking" (OP)?

They wouldn't be able to evaluate those claims scientifically, no.

Quote:

Yes, favored, but not leading to, causing, originating or in whatever way bringing about?

Natural selection acts on existing variation. The causes of the original tendency would be from some other mechanism.

Quote:

Not to press you personally here, but just to suggest science cannot truly or completely ignore the thought or consideration of "supernatural" and still be good science.

Actually, it really has to, as science is the search for natural explanations of the world around us.

Quote:

Understood, but it begins at the individual level ... although, that really is irrelevant here, I think.

Not at all. You are raised in a particular faith community. Entire countries (moreso in the past than today) are monolithically of one religion. In short, religion is a group activity.

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leejosepho
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22 Jan 2010, 7:08 pm

Orwell wrote:

Natural selection acts on existing variation. The causes of the original tendency would be from some other mechanism.

... science is the search for natural explanations of the world around us.

So then, science and/or scientists would have no concern or curiosity in relation to "some other mechanism" beyond some kind of acknowledgment or whatever that it might (or science-logically must) exist?

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Magnus
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22 Jan 2010, 7:38 pm

leejosepho wrote:

Quote:

Not to press you personally here, but just to suggest science cannot truly or completely ignore the thought or consideration of "supernatural" and still be good science.

Orwell wrote:

Quote:

Actually, it really has to, as science is the search for natural explanations of the world around us.

Most scientists laugh at the thought of studying the possibility of anything paranormal.

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Last edited by Magnus on 22 Jan 2010, 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Avarice
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22 Jan 2010, 7:39 pm

Greshym_Shorkan wrote:

Sand wrote:

Not my brain.

I would agree, seeing as you take every opportunity to say how useless prayer is, and how unthinking people of religion are.

As do I, although Sand is somewhat more knowledgeable on the subject than I.

Orwell
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22 Jan 2010, 7:40 pm

leejosepho wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Natural selection acts on existing variation. The causes of the original tendency would be from some other mechanism.

... science is the search for natural explanations of the world around us.

I didn't feel like going into details in my last post, but variation is produced in large part by mutation, or in other cases by phenotypic plasticity followed by genetic adaption (this part is more complicated- in some experiments it looks deceptively like inheritance of acquired characteristics). Non-natural causes can't be investigated using the scientific method, so you have to look elsewhere for knowledge of the supernatural.

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leejosepho
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22 Jan 2010, 10:04 pm

Orwell wrote:

Non-natural causes can't be investigated using the scientific method ...

... so science cannot rule out the possibility of something supernatural in some way possibly driving, influencing, affecting and/or effecting natural selection, correct?

Note: Personally, I am already satisfied with my knowledge of the supernatural.

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Sand
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22 Jan 2010, 10:35 pm

leejosepho wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Non-natural causes can't be investigated using the scientific method ...

There have been many scientific investigations of phenomena claimed to be supernatural and they have all indicated either fraud or non-reproductive in a way that makes them not available for examination.

leejosepho
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22 Jan 2010, 11:07 pm

Sand wrote:

I understand, but that is not the question here. The OP began with a question about some kind of natural spiritual leaning, then natural selection came into the picture ... and now this:

... so science cannot rule out the possibility of something supernatural in some way possibly driving, influencing, affecting and/or effecting natural selection, correct?

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22 Jan 2010, 11:21 pm

We can't rule out a lot of things, but that is not the reason why we should entertain ideas of the paranormal. If you have had experiences in your life that give you evidence that there is something else out there, then that is good enough for me. First, go to a few shrinks, talk to some friends, make sure you aren't completely crazy before accepting these sorts of experiences to be real.

Sand
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23 Jan 2010, 12:07 am

leejosepho wrote:

Sand wrote:

Your conception of science is rather inverted. Science investigates observable phenomena and integrates them into a general framework of consistent predictable but modifiable rules. The rules are modified as new phenomena must be incorporated. It makes no statements about phenomena that are not observed or are not logically consistent with the current understandings. It merely temporarily ignores them until observable evidence is obtained.

leejosepho
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23 Jan 2010, 12:11 am

Sand wrote:

Your conception of science is rather inverted.

Not at all.

Magnus wrote:

We can't rule out a lot of things ...

... and that is my point: Only bad science would do so.

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Sand
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23 Jan 2010, 12:18 am

leejosepho wrote:

Sand wrote:

Your conception of science is rather inverted.

Not at all.

Magnus wrote:

We can't rule out a lot of things ...

... and that is my point: Only bad science would do so.

You flatly stated the "science cannot rule out possibilities ........"
Science does not rule out possibilities. It investigates them and when the investigations come up empty handed it feels free to ignore those possibilities until investigation provides usable data.

Your concept of science is defective.

Orwell
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23 Jan 2010, 1:42 am

leejosepho wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Non-natural causes can't be investigated using the scientific method ...

... so science cannot rule out the possibility of something supernatural in some way possibly driving, influencing, affecting and/or effecting natural selection, correct?

Strictly speaking, no, but I'm sure at some point Sand will bring up Russell's Teapot. We can't rule that out, either, but many people choose to disregard it as being highly unlikely.

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23 Jan 2010, 5:17 am

Greshym_Shorkan wrote:

I've long suspected certain brains have a predisposition for religious or spiritual thinking, while others have a the framework that cannot believe ("relate to" is a better word) these ideas.

When my dad lost his parents at an early age, that's when he came to prayer. When I myself faced a disastrous situation that I saw no way out of, that's when I turned to prayer myself. In both our cases, we felt uncomfortable and skeptical of it before, for the same reasons- prayer is tied to religion, and in both our thinking, religion didn't stand up to scrutiny. I didn't find this out about him until long after I began my inward journey.

I also had a religious professor that admitted that there's probably neurological basis for religious or spiritual thought. I gotta jet... I be back tomorrow.

Dont be daft, this has absolutely nothing to do with genetics, it is purely that due to all the brain washing that goes on, so when people become desperate they turn to god. I mean seriously have you really given more than a minutes thought to what you are proposing. Yes there have been some studies which suggest religious belief has assisted communities to survive but this is only because it provides a 'glue' to hold them together. Pragmatism has nothing to do with genetics.

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leejosepho
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23 Jan 2010, 8:07 am

Sand wrote:

You flatly stated ...
Your concept of science is ...

You have digressed, Sand, and I will not go there.

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leejosepho
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23 Jan 2010, 8:14 am

Orwell wrote:

Strictly speaking, no ... but many people choose to disregard it as being highly unlikely.

I can accept that, and I thank you for the discussion!

I would never even think of expecting a scientist to attempt to examine or reproduce in a beaker my life-experience with spiritual stuff, but the book you had mentioned at least gives me just a little more reason to claim its substance.

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