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Philologos
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30 Jan 2010, 1:45 am

Many moons ago, I defined myself as an idealist anarchist, with a program very like Omerik's and a realization that with people as they mostly are it would be unlikely to get implemented.

Today my son Arbogast defines himself as a Libertarian, with a very similar program. We are not made for the collective. The Collective knows that, and it is not comfortable.



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30 Jan 2010, 10:21 am

fidelis wrote:
In an anarchy there would no longer be capitalism. They aren't mutually exclusive, but they don't go hand and hand together either. Without money, these problems would be a thing of the past. We would all work to fix the pasts mistakes but apart from that we would pretty much ignore the old systems. Money is too efficient a way to gain power, and therefor doesn't work well with anarchy. Hey wait! No money=no unnecessary industrialization, no scams. Human nature as we understand it gone (see my last post)=very little vandalism (it would make front page news), no viruses. Although I thought that's what linux was for. Oh well, computers aren't my area.


I am very curious as to how any kind of organized human life can exist without money. Barter is totally impossible in a sophisticated society. Work credits or any other kind of recorded value is just another name for money.



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30 Jan 2010, 3:39 pm

Read "The Host" by Stephenie Meyer. Even if twilight wasn't that good of a book, this one wasn't that bad. In it, the world is taken over by "peaceful" parasites that attach to peoples brain stems and take them over. One of the more interesting parts is when she describes why money isn't needed in an anarchy. No, there is no bartering or communism. The best way I can describe it is people take only what they need, and there jobs simply because they have to in order for society to function.
If this doesn't sound like it will work, conformity, and a fear of social alienation take care of the people who don't want to contribute.


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30 Jan 2010, 8:01 pm

fidelis wrote:
Read "The Host" by Stephenie Meyer. Even if twilight wasn't that good of a book, this one wasn't that bad. In it, the world is taken over by "peaceful" parasites that attach to peoples brain stems and take them over. One of the more interesting parts is when she describes why money isn't needed in an anarchy. No, there is no bartering or communism. The best way I can describe it is people take only what they need, and there jobs simply because they have to in order for society to function.
If this doesn't sound like it will work, conformity, and a fear of social alienation take care of the people who don't want to contribute.


Robert Heinlein wrote "The Puppet Masters" with the same basic idea of a parasite master. But the concept of a possible moneyless society seems, to me, so terribly vague and unaware of the basic psychology of living organisms that I cannot see it's logic. It assumes an overwhelming abundance of basic necessities and a total lack of competition which is total fantasy.



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30 Jan 2010, 8:40 pm

Right now it seems impossible. Right now it seems impossible. We have all been raised in a society where money is a fact of life. It is a fantasy to assume we could just scrap money. It wouldn't make sense to just force everyone to give up their fortunes, or force others to just adapt when they're not capable of it. That's not what I was suggesting. It would only in a slow transition over three or for decades. On that third or fourth decade, money would seem as uncivilized of an idea as dictatorships seems to us.


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30 Jan 2010, 8:48 pm

fidelis wrote:
Right now it seems impossible. Right now it seems impossible. We have all been raised in a society where money is a fact of life. It is a fantasy to assume we could just scrap money. It wouldn't make sense to just force everyone to give up their fortunes, or force others to just adapt when they're not capable of it. That's not what I was suggesting. It would only in a slow transition over three or for decades. On that third or fourth decade, money would seem as uncivilized of an idea as dictatorships seems to us.


As I mentioned, the hard reality is that there is not universal abundance of basic necessities and no likelihood o that coming about. The reality is money.



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30 Jan 2010, 9:01 pm

Basic necessities:
1) food
2) water
3) Shelter (arguable by location)
4) Oxygen (that is abundant, but god only nows for how long)
5) Internet (50 years from now this won't be arguable)
6) Liberty (not true for physical life, but true for mental life)
7) Transportation (You can run cars on food byproducts, and four generations will come up with some better option)
8 ) Something else that I am forgetting about, but I know you will have thought of, whether or not you chose to include it)

All but 4 and 8 are abundant, and there are actually more cars than there are people. And once nuclear transmutation becomes a useable science, I don't see how any this will ever be running short.


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30 Jan 2010, 10:14 pm

fidelis wrote:
Basic necessities:
1) food
2) water
3) Shelter (arguable by location)
4) Oxygen (that is abundant, but god only nows for how long)
5) Internet (50 years from now this won't be arguable)
6) Liberty (not true for physical life, but true for mental life)
7) Transportation (You can run cars on food byproducts, and four generations will come up with some better option)
8 ) Something else that I am forgetting about, but I know you will have thought of, whether or not you chose to include it)

All but 4 and 8 are abundant, and there are actually more cars than there are people. And once nuclear transmutation becomes a useable science, I don't see how any this will ever be running short.



The stuff you claim as abundant does not appear magically like manna from heaven. It requires long boring hard work and people do not do that unless they are somehow forced to. And even if machines are finally devised to do most of the work - which is far further off in time than a few decades, the machines have to be repaired and maintained and there is far more to that than is apparent.

Aside from that your comprehension of human and other life psychologies is negligible. Living things will compete and fight for no sensible reason at all and that is the nature of living stuff.



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30 Jan 2010, 10:37 pm

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Aside from that your comprehension of human and other life psychologies is negligible. Living things will compete and fight for no sensible reason at all and that is the nature of living stuff.


Do you actually believe that people will turn into monsters if left to their own will?


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30 Jan 2010, 10:42 pm

fidelis wrote:
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Aside from that your comprehension of human and other life psychologies is negligible. Living things will compete and fight for no sensible reason at all and that is the nature of living stuff.


Do you actually believe that people will turn into monsters if left to their own will?


No, not at all. People will not turn into monsters. Look around. They are monsters.



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30 Jan 2010, 10:46 pm

If you isolate one person, they could easily be made into a generally nice person. Then, when they enter their original environment, something happens. They regress to their destructive behaviors. This is because they return to a destructive environment. If they return to an environment where every one else are also generally nice, there would be no real trigger to cause the regression. And that's stating it like people are monsters.


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30 Jan 2010, 10:56 pm

fidelis wrote:
If you isolate one person, they could easily be made into a generally nice person. Then, when they enter their original environment, something happens. They regress to their destructive behaviors. This is because they return to a destructive environment. If they return to an environment where every one else are also generally nice, there would be no real trigger to cause the regression. And that's stating it like people are monsters.


Some people are decent and modest. I am affable, witty, rational, flexible (to a reasonable degree) and more or less happy with a very modest income. But everybody else is crazy. They will fight over the shape or color of a necktie or put people in prison for photographing their naked children or go berserk over Janet Jackson's nipple or murder people for criticizing the viciousness of Islamic fundamentalists or rape little girls in the Congo and teach other little children to murder each other or people in general for no reason whatsoever. Don't tell me people aren't monsters.



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30 Jan 2010, 11:02 pm

Sand wrote:
fidelis wrote:
If you isolate one person, they could easily be made into a generally nice person. Then, when they enter their original environment, something happens. They regress to their destructive behaviors. This is because they return to a destructive environment. If they return to an environment where every one else are also generally nice, there would be no real trigger to cause the regression. And that's stating it like people are monsters.


Some people are decent and modest. I am affable, witty, rational, flexible (to a reasonable degree) and more or less happy with a very modest income. But everybody else is crazy. They will fight over the shape or color of a necktie or put people in prison for photographing their naked children or go berserk over Janet Jackson's nipple or murder people for criticizing the viciousness of Islamic fundamentalists or rape little girls in the Congo and teach other little children to murder each other or people in general for no reason whatsoever. Don't tell me people aren't monsters.


What I'm trying to get at is they don't have to be. They aren't born destined to become monsters. They are monsters, but not by nature. I agree that we can't change those who are already alive, but we can change those who won't be born for another twenty years simply by changing their environment. Okay, maybe not simply, and probably not ethically, but it can happen. Probably won't, but can.


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30 Jan 2010, 11:09 pm

fidelis wrote:
Sand wrote:
fidelis wrote:
If you isolate one person, they could easily be made into a generally nice person. Then, when they enter their original environment, something happens. They regress to their destructive behaviors. This is because they return to a destructive environment. If they return to an environment where every one else are also generally nice, there would be no real trigger to cause the regression. And that's stating it like people are monsters.


Some people are decent and modest. I am affable, witty, rational, flexible (to a reasonable degree) and more or less happy with a very modest income. But everybody else is crazy. They will fight over the shape or color of a necktie or put people in prison for photographing their naked children or go berserk over Janet Jackson's nipple or murder people for criticizing the viciousness of Islamic fundamentalists or rape little girls in the Congo and teach other little children to murder each other or people in general for no reason whatsoever. Don't tell me people aren't monsters.


What I'm trying to get at is they don't have to be. They aren't born destined to become monsters. They are monsters, but not by nature. I agree that we can't change those who are already alive, but we can change those who won't be born for another twenty years simply by changing their environment. Okay, maybe not simply, and probably not ethically, but it can happen. Probably won't, but can.


But the world is not a laboratory. Each generation is taught by the previous generation and that is a chain that does not break and is very close to impossible to divert to more rational procedures. The poison of intellectual idiocy flows through the river of human reproduction unceasingly and cleaning it up is damned near impossible.



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30 Jan 2010, 11:22 pm

As close as impossible as gets without being impossible. It would be very unethical but we could do it. It won't get better on it's own, but segregation by personality would create a world of savages AND a world of saints. Evolution would constantly be cleaning the savage world while the other side will excel at an incredible rate. As I said: unethical. The most ethical option: leave it alone.
A side note: I don't include every possible problem I think of because I don't feel like writing a small book, and even if I do, I would leave something out.

But, do you at least agree that people are not monsters by nature, but mostly by nurture? If you don't believe that much, then this thread will just turn into pointless circle of refining our argument on whether not humans can actually handle anarchy, never actually making any progress. And seeing as neither of us can prove our argument, we will go at it for a month. Unless I'm wrong by thinking you are one of those people who just keep on going until everyone else quits or loses.


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31 Jan 2010, 1:09 am

fidelis wrote:
As close as impossible as gets without being impossible. It would be very unethical but we could do it. It won't get better on it's own, but segregation by personality would create a world of savages AND a world of saints. Evolution would constantly be cleaning the savage world while the other side will excel at an incredible rate. As I said: unethical. The most ethical option: leave it alone.
A side note: I don't include every possible problem I think of because I don't feel like writing a small book, and even if I do, I would leave something out.

But, do you at least agree that people are not monsters by nature, but mostly by nurture? If you don't believe that much, then this thread will just turn into pointless circle of refining our argument on whether not humans can actually handle anarchy, never actually making any progress. And seeing as neither of us can prove our argument, we will go at it for a month. Unless I'm wrong by thinking you are one of those people who just keep on going until everyone else quits or loses.


If you have any sense of reality you know that stupidity never loses. It has infinite resources.