Why is the world as messed up as it is?

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Is 'other' an option? I'd pick the human condition as the primary culprit - ie. our genetic frailties, how much genetics and instinct govern our reality, that's nothing any liberal can wipe away no matter how much they wish to level the playing field (the thought is well intended but I think misdirected). We are animals, as animals we have the same proclivities to weed out the weak, achieve certain things to get the mate(s) we want, and a lot of that is deliberately shiesty or risk-taking behavior to prove the quality of our genetics. Our own ambitions are to provide for ourselves and for those close to us, with of course urges to provide for humanity but in a rather tertiary situation usually more than a hands-on kind of way.

IMO its no one's fault, its more a problem of our being slaves to a genetic basis, 46 frail mutation-prone chromosomes, and most of the problems we have rise up as secondary/tertiary factors of that. Its not about game theory or anything like that, more an aggregate effect of how we operate in self-actualizing, what works and what doesn't work based on the frame that we're built on. IMO almost every evil can be traced back to the human condition in that respect - society seems to be an agreement on how to best deal with and mitigate those problems (ie. using conformity as a pass/fail, sorting people out by stereotypes), to come up with a better way without casualties, again IMO, is impossible unless Sand's article is right and if we're somehow able to transfer ourselves, our 'conscious' aspect, into something that can actually correct itself rather than being flawed from birth. Even then, without such humility-inducing fatal flaws, we have no idea how conscious machines would act. IMO we really have no hope - we are what we are, things are about as good as they can be (societally) notwithstanding improvements in technology in reference to health and well-being. I have no idea what our future holds as a race but, we'll have to pay attention to our frailties otherwise we'll fall prey to repeating the worst of history - a lot of our problems we simply can't wish away, 'society' and 'conditioning' are only self-forming logic systems that arise from our bottom-line reality.

Is 'other' an option? I'd pick the human condition as the primary culprit - ie. our genetic frailties, how much genetics and instinct govern our reality, that's nothing any liberal can wipe away no matter how much they wish to level the playing field (the thought is well intended but I think misdirected). We are animals, as animals we have the same proclivities to weed out the weak, achieve certain things to get the mate(s) we want, and a lot of that is deliberately shiesty or risk-taking behavior to prove the quality of our genetics. Our own ambitions are to provide for ourselves and for those close to us, with of course urges to provide for humanity but in a rather tertiary situation usually more than a hands-on kind of way.

IMO its no one's fault, its more a problem of our being slaves to a genetic basis, 46 frail mutation-prone chromosomes, and most of the problems we have rise up as secondary/tertiary factors of that. Its not about game theory or anything like that, more an aggregate effect of how we operate in self-actualizing, what works and what doesn't work based on the frame that we're built on. IMO almost every evil can be traced back to the human condition in that respect - society seems to be an agreement on how to best deal with and mitigate those problems (ie. using conformity as a pass/fail, sorting people out by stereotypes), to come up with a better way without casualties, again IMO, is impossible unless Sand's article is right and if we're somehow able to transfer ourselves, our 'conscious' aspect, into something that can actually correct itself rather than being flawed from birth. Even then, without such humility-inducing fatal flaws, we have no idea how conscious machines would act. IMO we really have no hope - we are what we are, things are about as good as they can be (societally) notwithstanding improvements in technology in reference to health and well-being. I have no idea what our future holds as a race but, we'll have to pay attention to our frailties otherwise we'll fall prey to repeating the worst of history - a lot of our problems we simply can't wish away, 'society' and 'conditioning' are only self-forming logic systems that arise from our bottom-line reality.

Is your option really other?

If you say that it is our genetics, then how is it different than saying that it is the flawed nature of people? After all, our natures have to be determined somewhat by genetics in order to claim that genetics is at fault. It seems to me that the only issue is that you might not really be identifying moral fault for a more general and deeper notion of flawed-ness.

I am just curious if you think I am interpreting you correctly.

It might be worthwhile to consider that we are not all alike. The basis of a sustaining life form is that it continuously produces and tries out variations of itself and is smashed back by the ever changing environment.

I seriously doubt I could administer the disgusting horrors that were inflicted on the victims of concentration camps and are today being routinely administered by members of the CIA, many local police forces, many of the enforcement personnel of many of the nations of the world.

I am not that kind of person and there are many like me. And there are many not like me. Humanity is a huge mish-mash of different kinds of people. I doubt it is predictable which ones may come into control.

I just want to talk to someone who wants to turn themselves into something that can fly.. so that the transition into space, will be an easy one. The idea is to remove the earth sludge. Does anyone want to talk about how to gently and effectively detach from earth?

Sand wrote:
I seriously doubt I could administer the disgusting horrors that were inflicted on the victims of concentration camps and are today being routinely administered by members of the CIA, many local police forces, many of the enforcement personnel of many of the nations of the world.

I don't know that I have any tinfoil around the house - I'll have to get back to you on that.

Your snide implication that I was dotty in indicating the there is massive abuse of power by enforcement agencies of both the local police forces and government agencies indicates an amazing blindness to current events and recent history. I didn't realize anybody with a computer and access to a search engine could ignore the huge number of articles detailing the abuses could be so totally unaware. It's depressing.

You're comparing what's happening right now to the holocaust - where minorities and the mentally infirmed were thrown in ovens or gassed. I'd be going too light to even call that hyperbole. When we start incinerating terror suspects or performing medical experiments on them such as surgery without anesthetic - you'll have something.

He died a hero they sais. Ah remember that song: 'Billy Don't Be A Hero'. In fact, he died a spare prick in a uniform, walking along a country road Wi a rifle in his hand. He died an ignorant victim ay imperialism, understanding f**k all about the myriad circumstances which led tae his death. That wis the biggest crime, he understood f**k all about it. Aw he hud tae guide um through this great adventure in Ireland, which led tae his death, wis a few vaguely formed sectarian sentiments. The c**t died as he lived: completely f****n scoobied.

Individuality breeds self-preservation at the expense of other individuals. Remove individuality, that pervasive delusion that "I am a unique and beautiful snowflake created in the image of god and/or the apex of evolution, and more deserving than all others," and you will solve 99% of the disgusting havok Humans are wreaking on their own planet and people.

Sadly, I believe without my individuality I might as well be dead. So, screw it, let the massive disorganized construct of greed, disunity, self-centered destruction... just let it do it's thing. Let everyone that can feel be miserable and f***ked until we have finally made this oasis barren and eternally fallow by the hubris of how special we all are. Congratulations Humans, one and all. So *special*.

The really sad thing - human beings are split, as in we *really* want to stop being animals, really want to transcend our genes, but we have no idea how. That will be likely our biggest challenge in the future I think - coming to grips with that about ourselves and trying to solve it.

Maybe that's why I'm so bitter about it. I know I'm no great thinker, probably not intelligent enough to devise any solutions and definitely not educated enough to. But there are people who are... where are they? The clock is ticking, and right now in my perspective hope is all but lost.

Well, the best place to hide out is in the warm loving embrace of personal growth and achievement. If you haven't devised a way of transporting the human 'essence' into a machine without ultimately erasing the person and simply saving their memories on a disc - don't worry, that's a tall order. In the meantime though, I really doubt we'll be blowing ourselves off the map or polluting, populating ourselves out of existence, or polluting ourselves of the map.

Well, the best place to hide out is in the warm loving embrace of personal growth and achievement. If you haven't devised a way of transporting the human 'essence' into a machine without ultimately erasing the person and simply saving their memories on a disc - don't worry, that's a tall order. In the meantime though, I really doubt we'll be blowing ourselves off the map or polluting, populating ourselves out of existence, or polluting ourselves of the map.