Time for Catholics to vote for a Pope - even a woman Pope?

Post Reply New Topic

The Presbyterian Church (USA) operates under a democratic system and has not suffered any of the ills either of you predict.

In fact, we Presbyterians have a much more sensible system of government than almost any civil government in the world.

So why is it so many non Catholics want to sit around picking apart the church for not doing things in a way non Catholics see as proper ?

If you dont swim do not join the swim club eh ? sitting around jawing about how so and so would be a better swimmer , or how they should include the chess players club members because otherwise its discrimination, is just silly and a waste of your time , not to mention so many of you are high IQ and could use all that computing power for better things than tearing down someone /thing .

I am often puzzled by the notion that it is impossible (or at least impermissible) to criticize or disapprove of something which you are not a part of or do not participate in. If I disapprove of some organization, I'm hardly going to choose to participate in it, now am I?

the problem is some are not knowlegable about the subject matter . Its the same as others making generalized statments about aspies yet not having a clue what its like .. ie .. AS not real, you are just lazy and thats your excuse etc ..

If I JUST disapprove of something and/or do not want to participate in it, you likely won't hear me bash it.

If i disapprove of the effect that someone or something has on society as a whole, which I AM part of, and which I do participate in, then I do have the right, which I will exercise, to criticize it.
When an organization actively and openly tries to enforce it's ethics into law, thus depriving people of their rights, such as gay marriage or abortion. And that those laws become the laws that dictate the lives of not just Catholics, but also every other denomination and atheists alike..... This is when those that oppose should speak out. If I do not speak my counter-argument to the Catholic Church's bigotry, then their bigotry WILL become, and stay law.

I do not participate in the Conservative Party of Canada, I am a member of one of the other two major parties.
By your theory wonders, I should not criticize their policies, and they should not criticize my party's. That just doesn't work. Unless of course you're falling back on the age old "But religion is different"... Don't go there!
Religion is different, yes. Because of it's nature it needs to be held to a STRONGER STANDARD OF ACCOUNT! Just like a Police officer should be held to a stronger standard of the law... A church must be held to a stronger standard of ethics.

Simply put, I do not care what you do with your life that involves only you or other consulting individuals.
When you start to affect non-consulting, or non-consult-able (such as minors) in your actions... that's when you've gone too far with your beliefs... and they are no longer just "beliefs"

And for the record... I WAS a catholic by birth and knowing it for what it IS, is why it makes me sick to my stomach.

That is correct. Exclavius' participation in his party and his criticisms of conservatives are of positive effect on all Canadian politics. Despite being a non card carrying conservative, would I do away with the Liberal party if I could? Hell no. What sort of fool wants a one party state? It wouldnt matter which party remained, the results would be just BAD.

Catholics should criticize their own faith. Non Catholics should do the same.

Atheists especially need to put the religious leaders boots to the fire. We need to be loud and omni-present.

hold it .. this whole thread has been about the Pope and a democratic church model .. NOT abortion or gay marriage . Why did you even throw that in there ? and for the record ? you do NOT become Catholic by being born into a household that goes to mass . You become Catholic by choosing to .
Why doesn't it work to not criticize things you have no direct involvement in ?
If you do not like something does that make it wrong ? If you want to drive downtown at 90 mph and I say thats endangerment and try to stop you , does that place me in the wrong ?
Truth IS Truth like it or not . follow it or not .

I suppose an argument could be made that a certain leadership structure leads to anti-social behavior on the part of the church. I personally am not interested in dictating the Catholic church's internal affairs, but I see no reason why they can't be criticized for holding to an antiquated patriarchal system.


Not according to the Catholic Church.


Do you have any criticism of child pornography?

Thanks Orwell, You answered that better than I think I could have.

But as for being Catholic... The local church still views me as catholic. I was baptized there, so in their opinion I belong to them. Despite that I actually burned my bap cert.

As for choosing, I DID choose! until i was about 19 or 20... I CHOSE to be that!

Why did I bring up gay marriage and abortion? pretty easy answer to that, but I think you lack the faculties to put it together, so I'll spell it out. You wanted to know why people criticize what they're not apart of. Well, what they are not apart of DOES affect them, and whereby it affects them, they NEED to criticize it.

If you honestly believe your point, that you shouldn't criticize things... then the catholic pulpit will never hold a priest telling bad things about gays or abortion... they'll just not take part in it.

You don't listen to music at 100 dB... but your neighbors do.... so you can't tell them to turn it down.
You don't pollute the lakes and rivers, but the big corporations do... keep your mouth shut!
You don't partake in the genocide of all religious people... And because you don't do it.. you can't tell me that I can't do it, or criticize me for doing it.
By your little ideal... I have the right to deafen, poison and kill you, and you can't speak a word against it.

But I reject your little principle, so I WILL speak out against pedo-priests and the cover up of them.
I will speak out against the brainwashing of children, and the suppression of science.
I will fight your homophobic misogynistic propaganda.
And you know what? Each and every member of the church that has problems with it SHOULD shout out and say, "I won't take this anymore, I"ll have no part of it!" But they won't.... They've been placated with hypocritical BS like what you're trying to say, which lets the Holy Mother Church say what it wants, but exclude all outsiders (and insiders) from speaking out against it!

[quote="Exclavius"]Thanks Orwell, You answered that better than I think I could have.

But as for being Catholic... The local church still views me as catholic. I was baptized there, so in their opinion I belong to them. Despite that I actually burned my bap cert.

As for choosing, I DID choose! until i was about 19 or 20... I CHOSE to be that!

Why did I bring up gay marriage and abortion? pretty easy answer to that, but I think you lack the faculties to put it together, so I'll spell it out. You wanted to know why people criticize what they're not apart of. Well, what they are not apart of DOES affect them, and whereby it affects them, they NEED to criticize it.

If you honestly believe your point, that you shouldn't criticize things... then the catholic pulpit will never hold a priest telling bad things about gays or abortion... they'll just not take part in it.

You don't listen to music at 100 dB... but your neighbors do.... so you can't tell them to turn it down.
You don't pollute the lakes and rivers, but the big corporations do... keep your mouth shut!
You don't partake in the genocide of all religious people... And because you don't do it.. you can't tell me that I can't do it, or criticize me for doing it.
By your little ideal... I have the right to deafen, poison and kill you, and you can't speak a word against it.

But I reject your little principle, so I WILL speak out against pedo-priests and the cover up of them.
I will speak out against the brainwashing of children, and the suppression of science.
I will fight your homophobic misogynistic propaganda.
And you know what? Each and every member of the church that has problems with it SHOULD shout out and say, "I won't take this anymore, I"ll have no part of it!" But they won't.... They've been placated with hypocritical BS like what you're trying to say, which lets the Holy Mother Church say what it wants, but exclude all outsiders (and insiders) from speaking out against it![/quote

you are so wrong on so many levels it boggles me . I cry Uncle .. go your unhappy angry way . I hope you find some peace in your world .

Catholics do vote for the pope; it just isn't all Catholics, and the appointment is for life.

Many mainline Protestant denominations have democratic polity - from the liberal Congregationalists, to the doctrinally conservative Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - and they all for the most part function smoothly within the parameters of their theology.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer