August 6 and August 9.

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greenblue
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06 Aug 2010, 2:26 am

ruveyn wrote:

On August 6 and 9 of 1945 we got our final revenge for the attack on Pearl Harbor. The death toll at Hiroshima was ultimately 140,000. 80,000 right off and the rest died mostly from wounds or radiation poisoning. My reaction was: not nearly enough died. I am really bothered that over 90 percent of the Japanese survived the Pacific War.
ruveyn

You seem to be bothered with something that happened 65 years ago.

How many people died in Pearl Harbor, how many civilians died in Pearl Harbor? to make a fairly number comparison with Hiroshima and Nagasaki due to the atomic bombings.

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06 Aug 2010, 2:31 am

ruveyn wrote:

Fuzzy wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

To repeat: I have no great animus toward the current generation of Japan. They never made war on me or mine so I have no beef with them. I just wish their education establishment were more straight up about the history of the Asian war than they are at present.

ruveyn

I didnt think you did.

Did the post war children reject and rebel against those social structures, or did the adult war population undergo a metamorphosis in thinking?

Unfortunately no. The children, by and large, bought the story that the Establishment in Japan sold them.

In current Japanese text books that deal with the period from 1930 to 1945, the authorized editions are less than forthright about how bad the Japanese government of that time was. Look at the politics. It took 60 years for the current Japanese government to apologize to the Koreans about what Japan did to Korea (back in the 30's). In addition to which Japanese citizens who have Korean ancestry are discriminated against even today, as though having a Korean relative were a taint or defect. The Japanese are very conscious of pedigree (in the same sense that dog and cat fanciers are). The Japanese are among the most racist people in the world. The surely were back in the period 1930-1945.

During the second world war two of the most racist nations in the world made war upon each other. I grew up during WW2. I can tell you from direct knowledge that the kind of language Americans used about Japanese (we called them Japs and Nips) was positively shameful. We referred to the Japanese as lice, bedbugs, rats and other very subhuman animal species. We even put American citizens with Japanese parents into prison camps. Thank G-D we didn't do to them what the Germans (at that time) did to Jews. It was a very bad and unpleasant time, I can tell you that. I recall very distinctly that when we burned Japan to the ground (many more people were killed with non-nuclear weapons than with two A-bombs dropped in anger) there was a great cheer that went up. Good! said we. They deserved it! The war cry was: And it so happens that they did. About the children (particularly infants) that were cooked and roasted ---- So Sorry. That is how it was at that time. Most of you guys missed out by thirty for forty years so you simply do not know how it was.

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was actually a cleaner operation than low level area bombing by incendiary weapons against Japanese cities. The Japanese operation was purely against military targets, mostly airfield, naval assets and some fuel and storage facilities and barracks. We went after civilians in much the same way as the British "Bomber" Harris went after German workers. But you should understand; much of what we did was revenge. The Pacific war was a hate-hate relationship.

ruveyn

As a WWII veteran I am well aware of the emotions at the time. It was worse on the US west coast where American citizens of Japanese origin were shamefully kept in concentration camps and robbed of their property by other Americans who took advantage of the emotional situation. I lived in Manhattan at the time and we had a very good Japanese cabinetmaker who lived nearby and he remained as an active free person during the war.

The same kind of nastiness is apparent towards US Muslims today.

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06 Aug 2010, 3:09 am

Exclavius wrote:

Well, Ruveyn, I had held respect for you up until now.

If I were to know that you were representative of the American population, I would have cheered the 9-11 attacks, and only be saddened by the fact that they were not nuclear and more prolific, and still going on today, daily.

Are you even aware that MacArthur and Truman had received surrender requests from the Japanese before the bombs? That they ignored them?

Why? Cause they wanted to prove they had the biggest pricks!
What DID they prove? that they WERE the biggest pricks!

I am utterly and disgustingly revolted. You make me sick!

Japan was in reality the first victim of what became the cold war.

The threat posed in the minds of the US military/industrial elite by the might of the Soviet military and tensions in the recently liberated Germany between the western allies and the Soviets motivated what was purely a display of strength at the expense of the Japanese who were in reality beaten, knew they were beaten and looking for an honourable exit.

To see anyone say 'more should have died'... well you sick ignorant hate filled bag of bile.....

Let us mourn those dead just as we should mourn all the dead victims of stupidity and arrogance.

peace j

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06 Aug 2010, 3:14 am

Orwell wrote:

Those were civilians who died there. Now, bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki may have been necessary to force a quick end to the war, but let's not pretend that killing (mostly innocent) civilians is a good thing.

You contradict yourself. Any action which minimizes casualties on one's own side in a war is a Very Good Thing. The ideal way of fighting a war is to kill everyone on the other side without suffering a single casualty. That never happens but that is the ideal.

ruveyn

Last edited by ruveyn on 06 Aug 2010, 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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06 Aug 2010, 3:16 am

ruveyn wrote:

U-S-A!! ! U-S-A!! ! U-S-A!! !

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06 Aug 2010, 3:22 am

Just a word to those who were not alive during the period 1930 to 1950. You people do not know how it was back then. If you judge the situation by current politically correct standards you are committing The Presentist Falacy.

The attack against Pearl Harbor came as a complete surprise (and shame on the FDR administration for ignoring the warning signs!). The reaction was shock, disgust and hatred. You have no idea of how hated the Japanese became in literally a one or two day period. You weren't there so you have no right to judge what people felt and did back then. Every since the American people have been somewhat crazy and daft on the matter of surprise attack.

And that is why so much hatred was generated by the 9/11 outrage. It was Pearl Harbor all over again. Fortunately for the people in the Islamic Domains, Americans have become much softer than they were back in the 30s and 40s. If we were as hard in 2001 as we were during and just after the Depression we would have attack the Islamic World immediately with nuclear weapons. Well, we did not and you can thank moral decay and political correctness for that. We are not as hard as we used to be.

ruveyn

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06 Aug 2010, 4:38 am

ruveyn wrote:

Since the Muslims who attacked on 9/11 were mostly from Egypt and Saudi Arabia, that Iraq and Afghanistan are our current "enemies" really does indicate how soft in the head Americans have become. Much of the planning was done in Germany and the flight training was done in Florida. If the war was with Florida the logistics, if nothing else, would be much simpler and more on target.

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06 Aug 2010, 9:57 am

ruveyn wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Incorrect. The ideal way is to reach peace with the other side so that no one has to die.

When it is necessary to kill some of Them in order to protect Us, it is still a loss of human life. That is never something to celebrate, or to wish more of.

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06 Aug 2010, 10:11 am

ruveyn wrote:

You're a disgusting sadist and I'm sad you weren't made into a bar of soap.

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06 Aug 2010, 12:41 pm

With respect, I disagree, in so far as the damage was inflicted upon people who had little, if any say in the direction of their government.

The crimes committed by the Japanese were largely the initiative of the military. Although there was nominally a civilian government in Japan before and during the Pacific War, the reality was that the Army Staff and the Navy Staff had control over the appointment of their Ministers, and could, if they objected to a Prime Minister, refuse to nominate Ministers and prevent an administration from taking office.

So how much impact did ordinary Japanese citizens have over the policy direction of their government? And of those who did have impact, how many of them were subject to retribution?

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06 Aug 2010, 1:03 pm

visagrunt wrote:

Collateral damage is one of the infelicities of modern warfare. Bombs do not care who they fall on. Since the military folk live cheek to jowl with the others, collateral damage is going to be considerable. This is particularly ungraceful when infant children are killed. But think on this; if the enemy ever thinks we are sentimental about children they will plaster the roofs of their factories with baby cribs and baby carriages full of infants. If one is serious about warfare he must stifle any sentimentality. That is the way it is.

ruveyn

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06 Aug 2010, 3:11 pm

Exclavius wrote:

I'm pretty sure Japan wasn't open to unconditional surrender until after the atomic bombings/the Soviets declaring war on them. They might of been open to ending the war with terms favorable to them before the bombs were dropped but that was obviously unacceptable.

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06 Aug 2010, 3:25 pm

Jacoby wrote:

Truman gave the Japanese an ultimatum at the Potsdam Conference. The Japanese spurned the ultimatum. Truman promised a rain of destruction upon the Japanese people the likes of which has never been seen before in the world. The promise was kept.

ruveyn

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06 Aug 2010, 3:32 pm

Ruveyn, pardon me if you find these questions offensive, but they are inquisitive in nature and I would like to know your opinion as you lived in that era-

America threatened to use nuclear weapons during the Korean war. The North Koreans (or the Maoists) never attacked the USA, in fact, the USA assisted the Kuomintang in the Chinese civil war despite there being no threat from the Maoists. Would you have agreed to this move?

I recall you being a bit agitated about the Japanese refusing to apologise to the Koreans for nearly half a century of occupation. The US army virtually raised Pyongyang to the ground during this war and turned a blind eye to war crimes by the Syngman Rhee regime.

Should the US government apologise to the two Korean governments? Its been nearly 60 years after all.

What about agent orange in Vietnam? The North Vietnamese only attacked US Navy targets, no civillians (as far as I can recall) to trigger the conflict. Should the US government apologise to the Vietnamese government for using weapons of mass destruction against its civilians?

We both know that war crimes do occur and are inevitable in combat. I do understand that you're agitated over the modern Japanese society for refusing to admit war crimes.

Would it be ok for individuals across the world to be agitated over your generation in America for refusing to accept and apologise for war crimes?

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06 Aug 2010, 4:25 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Ah, but we're not just talking about collateral damage and the necessary prosecution of an end to war.

ruveyn wrote:

My reaction was: not nearly enough died. I am really bothered that over 90 percent of the Japanese survived the Pacific War.

I am a sensible person that sees that governments must, from time to time, do terrible things to avoid greater disasters. But, having achieved the evasion of greater disaster, it is nothing short of inhumane to wish greater harm to have been done.

The bombs did their job. Were they sufficient? Clearly. Were they necessary? Probably. Should more Japanese suffered and died? I say, "No."

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06 Aug 2010, 5:22 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Not really, I don't think anyone here is judging the history of the situation by present standards, the problem is actually you rather than the history itself, as you are bringing a past scenario (Pearl Harbor specifically) and ranting that more japanese civilians should have been killed as a revenge for the attack on Pearl Harbor, and you are the one who is using your back-then standards to argue for things that wouldn't apply today.

Now if the fact that a lot of people survived the attacks makes you feel bad, then good!

Quote:

You weren't there so you have no right to judge what people felt and did back then. Every since the American people have been somewhat crazy and daft on the matter of surprise attack.

ok, so post-war born people don't have the right to judge you, but you have the right to assert how many civilian people that belonged to a former-enemy country should have died?

Yes, former, because Japan and the US are allies now, so bringing up that issue doesn't make much sense now and doesn't seem to serve any purpose, other than becoming just a personal issue, which it seems to be your case, which becomes practically meaningless.

Quote:

If we were as hard in 2001 as we were during and just after the Depression we would have attack the Islamic World immediately with nuclear weapons. Well, we did not and you can thank moral decay and political correctness for that. We are not as hard as we used to be.

I suppose international law, freedom and human rights = moral decay and PC. :roll:

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