Fellow Christians, I have questions

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There is no god; your mental illness is not caused by your fears but a pre-existing condition that has manifested itself through another completely mentally ill concept: god.

Can you not derail the thread with stuff that isn't related to the OP?

in bold: statement commenting on the first response to the OP.
not in bold: statements not related to the OP.

*edit*
though i guess it is begging the thread to go off in that direction.
...maybe we should just let the OP's target audience answer the questions instead of pointing and laughing, fun as that can be.

If you guys dont mind, I said "please dont be rude." Thanks.

As I'm not part of the target audience (Christians), I'll leave this thread.

I'm sorry if I've offended anybody and sorry for being rude, Guitar_Girl and posting my (flawed) understandings.

Those 144,000 are actually 12,000 members from twelve tribes of Israel and they aren't the only ones going to Heaven. BTW, do you remember the warning given at the end of the book of Revelation, in 22:18-19,

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

So, mentioning only one aspect, such as the 144,000, and disregarding, say, 20:4-5, 11-14, etc, you have either intentionally or unintentionally left out relevant content. Also, in Revelation 7, in which the 144,000 from Israel is mentioned first, right after delineating which tribes of Jacob compose the 144,000 it says in 7:9-10,

"After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:

"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.""

kxmode: I suspect you may be misled on the subject of hell.

Hell, as you described, is correctly rendered "Gehenna," or in the Aramaic as the Valley of Hinnom. It is believed to be the former location of human sacrifice in ancient times and was certainly recognized by those living during the ministry of Jesus as a burning trash heap. Jesus made many references to it as a picture of what would happen to those who chose an eternity apart from Yahweh. Incidentally, "Jehovah" does not appear in any ancient Bible manuscript. This is an incorrect rendering of YHWH that has simply come into common usage and was never a part of either the Old Testament or the New Testament when they were written.

Back to the point: Jesus used Gehenna as a picture of a spiritual sort of trash heap reserved for those who rejected Him. It is very much a real place and has been described, as you aptly put it, as "the Pit," "the Grave," "Hades," "Sheol," and so on. Hades and Sheol are pretty much synonymous, at least as far as I've understood them, but are broad terms for the afterlife or the eternal resting of the soul. Hades and Sheol do not necessarily denote a place of torment or eternal decay. Gehenna, however, is more specific and more descriptive. It does not paint a pretty picture for those who have condemned themselves through their rejection of the Son. Jesus' intent in discussing hell was to emphasize that it was very much a reality, a real place. Saying that there is no such place as hell is misleading. I would advise an examination of properly translated scripture in order to clear up this matter.

Yes, but from spiritual Israel, or New Jerusalem. I'm sure you're going to ask what is New Jerusalem but that subject is a deep spiritual truth. I don't feel comfortable talking about this here because to discuss this with someone who lacks spiritual knowledge would be tantamount to feeding a baby solid food. In fact this is the illustration Paul used to describe those in the early Hebrew Christian congregation who gradually became dull in their spiritual knowledge "of the Bible" from a lack of personal Bible study. Edit: My apologies. "of the Bible" is a nomenclature. They didn't have the Bible back then, but they had the Apostle's various letters which eventually became part of the Bible. I always mix that up.

Hebrews 5:11 reads, "11 Concerning [Jesus] we have much to say and hard to be explained, since YOU* have become dull in YOUR hearing. 12 For, indeed, although YOU ought to be teachers in view of the time, YOU again need someone to teach YOU from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God; and YOU have become such as need milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone that partakes of milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong."

*“YOU” and “YOUR” is the Hebrew Christian congregation Paul’s letter was addressed to.

I'm not suggesting you are a dull person but someone would need to work up to the level of scriptural knowledge to be able to dive into a topic a deep as New Jerusalem. You would not want to start out on 350 pound weights before you even touch 25 pound. Do you see why I don't want to get into an explanation of what New Jerusalem is?

You can start with the basics with a free online book entitled What the Bible Really Teaches and eventually work up to spiritual Israel.

Last edited by kxmode on 07 Oct 2010, 1:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

With all due respect, it sounds to me like you're avoiding the subject. Why assume that we all lack spiritual knowledge? Perhaps there are those of us open-minded enough to understand it? Or is it possible you yourself aren't familiar enough with "deep spiritual truth" to confidently discuss it? Where does "deep spiritual truth" come from? Why should it be so hidden from us?

Don't say I didn't warn you...

New Jerusalem as an expression occurs only two times, and only in the highly symbolic book of Revelation. (Revelation 3:12; 21:2) Near the end of that series of visions, and after seeing Babylon the Great destroyed, the apostle John says: “I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”—Revelation 21:2.

The Bride of the Lamb. In the light of other scriptures, the identity of New Jerusalem is made certain. She is “as a bride.” Farther along, John writes: “One of the seven angels . . . spoke with me and said: ‘Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.’ So he carried me away in the power of the spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God and having the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious stone, as a jasper stone shining crystal-clear.”—Re 21:9-11.

New Jerusalem is the bride of whom? The Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, who shed his blood sacrificially for mankind. (John 1:29; Revelation 5:6, 12; 7:14; 12:11; 21:14) What is her identity? She is composed of the members of the glorified Christian congregation. The congregation on earth was likened to “a chaste virgin” to be presented to the Christ. (2 Corinthians 11:2) Again, the apostle Paul likens the Christian congregation to a wife, with Christ as her Husband and Head. — Ephesians 5:23-25, 32.

Furthermore, Christ himself addresses the congregation at Revelation 3:12, promising the faithful conqueror that he would have written upon him “the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.” A wife takes her husband’s name. Therefore those seen standing with the Lamb upon Mount Zion, numbering 144,000, having the Lamb’s name and that of his Father written in their foreheads, are evidently the same group, the bride.—Revelation 14:1.

Why could “New Jerusalem” not be a city in the Middle East?

New Jerusalem is heavenly, not earthly, for it comes down “out of heaven from God.” (Revelation 21:10) So this city is not one erected by men and consisting of literal streets and buildings constructed in the Middle East on the site of the ancient city of Jerusalem, which was destroyed in 70 C.E. The members of the bride class when on earth are told that their “citizenship exists in the heavens” and that their hope is to receive “an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance.” “It is reserved in the heavens for you,” says the apostle Peter.—Philippians 3:20; 1 Peter 1:4.

In 537 B.C.E., Jehovah created “new heavens and a new earth” when the Jewish remnant was restored to Jerusalem from Babylonian exile. (Isaiah 65:17) Evidently the governorship of Zerubbabel (a descendant of David) aided by High Priest Joshua, at the city of Jerusalem, constituted the “new heavens” then. (Haggai 1:4, 14) The New Jerusalem, together with Christ on his throne in this symbolic city, constitutes the “new heavens” that rule over the “new earth,” which is human society on earth.

That the New Jerusalem is indeed a heavenly city is further supported by the vision of her that John beheld. Only a symbolic city could have the dimensions and splendor of New Jerusalem. Its base was foursquare, about 555 km (345 mi) on each side, or about 2,220 km (1,379 mi) completely around, that is, 12,000 furlongs. Being a cube, the city was also as high as it was long and wide. No man-made city could ever reach that far into “outer space.” Round about was a wall 144 cubits (64 m; 210 ft) high. The wall, itself constructed of jasper, in turn rested on 12 foundation stones, precious stones of great beauty—jasper, sapphire, chalcedony, emerald, sardonyx, sardius, chrysolite, beryl, topaz, chrysoprase, hyacinth, and amethyst. On these 12 foundation stones were engraved the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb. The city proper within these beautiful walls was no less glorious, for it was described as “pure gold like clear glass,” having a broad way of “pure gold, as transparent glass.”—Revelation 21:12-21.

A Pure, Beneficial Rule. Entrance into the New Jerusalem through its magnificent walls was by means of 12 gates, three on a side, each made of a huge pearl. Although these gates were never closed, “anything not sacred and anyone that carries on a disgusting thing and a lie will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life will.” A holy and sacred city indeed, yet there was no visible temple of worship, for “Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb is.” And there was “no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb.” Its rulership over the nations will be beneficial to them, for “the nations will walk by means of its light.”—Revelation 21:22-27.

I don't mean to be rude, I'm trying to save you from the garbage that comes with a flawed, subservient philosophy where you always come up the guilty loser. Some sects can ignore certain texts but in the end, they're customizing the religion at hand rather than including all texts. All texts is pretty severe for anyone to follow. I think it's a legitimate post from someone who was raised Christian and attended parochial schools. I'm not just some elitist who was raised to blindly believe something, I came about it from a lot of thought and a lot of...less than flattering deprogramming (personal thought and reflection but still nothing I'd want to share all the details openly). It wasn't just one step then done...it's never that easy with that stuff crammed in your head and anyone who says otherwise is exaggerating or was raised in a fairly secular home to start off with.


/cue person contradicting me on my last statement
//contradictory statements should always be expected in life


Edit: spiritually, I've studied a number of alternate religions and compared and contrasted and while I publicly say atheist, my personal stance is personal and nothing more. Atheist, to me, is just as worthy of a statement given all the information at hand.

I have to do a lot of personal research to answer your questions, but I'll try. Know that most of what I am writing is taken from lots of information provided by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania.



Jehovah's Holy Spirit or his active force.

A principal operation of God’s spirit involves its ability to inform, to illuminate, to reveal things. Therefore David could pray: “Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Your spirit is good; may it lead me in the land of uprightness.” (Psalms 143:10) Much earlier, Joseph had given the interpretation of Pharaoh’s prophetic dreams, being enabled to do so by God’s help. The Egyptian ruler recognized the operation of God’s spirit in him. (Genesis 41:16, 25-39) This illuminating power of the spirit is particularly notable in prophecy. Prophecy, as the apostle shows, did not spring from human interpretation of circumstances and events; it was not the result of some innate ability of the prophets to explain the meaning and significance of these or to forecast the shape of coming events. Rather, such men were “borne along by holy spirit”—conveyed, moved, and guided by God’s active force. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Samuel 23:2; Zechariah 7:12; Luke 1:67; 2:25-35; Acts 1:16; 28:25) So, too, all the inspired Scriptures were “inspired of God,” which translates the Greek the·o´pneu·stos, meaning, literally, “God-breathed.” (2 Titus 3:16) The spirit operated in various manners in communicating with such men and guiding them, in some cases causing them to see visions or dreams (Ezekiel 37:1; Joel 2:28, 29; Revelation 4:1, 2; 17:3; 21:10), but in all cases operating on their minds and hearts to motivate and guide them according to God’s purpose.—Daniel 7:1; Acts 16:9, 10; Revelation 1:10, 11.

The means or agency for the inspiration of “all Scripture” was God’s holy spirit, or active force. That holy spirit operated toward or upon men to move them and guide them in setting down God’s message. Thus, the apostle Peter says of Bible prophecy: “You know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.” (2 Peter 1:20, 21) The evidence shows that God’s spirit operated on the minds and hearts of all the Bible writers to carry them along to the goal purposed by God. King David said: “The spirit of Jehovah it was that spoke by me, and his word was upon my tongue.” (2 Samuel 23:2) When Jesus quoted Psalm 110, he said that David had written it “by inspiration [literally, in spirit].” (Mathew 22:43) The parallel passage in Mark 12:36 reads “by the holy spirit.”

Even as Jehovah’s spirit moved men or qualified them to perform other divine assignments — the making of priestly garments and equipment for the tabernacle (Exodus 28:3; 35:30-35), carrying the load of administration (Deuteronomy 34:9), leading military forces (Judges 3:9, 10; 6:33, 34)—so it enabled men to record the Scriptures. By means of that spirit, they could be given wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, and power, beyond what was normal and according to their particular need. (Isaiah 11:2; Micah 3:8; 1 Corinthians 12:7, 8) David is stated to have received the architectural plan of the temple “by inspiration [literally, by the spirit].” (1 Chronicles 28:12) Jesus assured his apostles that God’s spirit would help them, teaching, guiding, and recalling to their minds the things they had heard from him, as well as revealing to them future things. (John 14:26; 16:13) This assured the truthfulness and accuracy of their Gospel accounts, including many lengthy quotations of Jesus’ speeches, even though John’s Gospel account, for example, was written scores of years after the death of Jesus.

Something else to consider none of these men of faith had access to the kinds of technology you and I have today. In fact they didn't even have "books" in their day. They had scrolls. And these scrolls were generally stacked on top of one another in a religious Synagogue. In other words it would've been extremely hard to write the gospels, from memory, with such details and commonality with only the available scrolls. The only way they could have been written was by divine means... in other words Jehovah's holy spirit.

Does that help clear up why the gospels are so similar?



This is the title by which one of the Bible books has been called since the second century C.E. It covers primarily the activity of Peter and Paul, rather than that of all the apostles in general; and it provides us with a most reliable and comprehensive history of the spectacular beginning and rapid development of the Christian organization, first among the Jews and then among the Samaritans and the Gentile nations.

The overriding theme of the entire Bible, Jehovah’s Kingdom, dominates the book (Acts 1:3; 8:12; 14:22; 19:8; 20:25; 28:31), and we are constantly reminded of how the apostles bore “thorough witness” concerning Christ and that Kingdom and fully accomplished their ministry. (2:40; 5:42; 8:25; 10:42; 20:21, 24; 23:11; 26:22; 28:23) The book also provides a superb historical background against which to view the inspired letters of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

Who was Act's Writer? The opening words of Acts refer to the Gospel of Luke as “the first account.” And since both accounts are addressed to the same individual, Theophilus, we know that Luke, though not signing his name, was the writer of Acts. (Luke 1:3; Acts 1:1) Both accounts have a similar style and wording. The Muratorian Fragment of the late second century C.E. also attributes the writership to Luke. Ecclesiastical writings of the second century C.E. by Irenaeus of Lyons, Clement of Alexandria, and Tertullian of Carthage, when quoting from Acts, cite Luke as the writer.

When and where was Acts written? The book covers a period of approximately 28 years, from Jesus’ ascension in 33 C.E. to the end of the second year of Paul’s imprisonment in Rome about 61 C.E. During this period four Roman emperors ruled in succession: Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. Since it relates events through the second year of Paul’s imprisonment in Rome, it could not have been completed earlier. Had the account been written later, it is reasonable to expect that Luke would have provided more information about Paul; if written after the year 64 C.E., mention surely would have been made of Nero’s violent persecution that began then; and if written after 70 C.E., as some contend, we would expect to find Jerusalem’s destruction recorded.

The writer Luke accompanied Paul much of the time during his travels, including the perilous voyage to Rome, which is apparent from his use of the first-person plural pronouns “we,” “our,” and “us” in Acts 16:10-17; 20:5-15; 21:1-18; 27:1-37; 28:1-16. Paul, in his letters written from Rome, mentions that Luke was also there. (Col 4:14; Phm 24) It was, therefore, in Rome that the writing of the book of Acts was completed.

As already observed, Luke himself was an eyewitness to much of what he wrote, and in his travels he contacted fellow Christians who either participated in or observed certain events described. For example, John Mark could tell him of Peter’s miraculous prison release (Acts 12:12), while the events described in chapters 6 and 8 could have been learned from the missionary Philip. And Paul, of course, as an eyewitness, was able to supply many details of events that happened when Luke was not with him.

What is the authenticity of Acts? The accuracy of the book of Acts has been verified over the years by a number of archaeological discoveries. For example, Acts 13:7 says that Sergius Paulus was the proconsul of Cyprus. Now it is known that shortly before Paul visited Cyprus it was ruled by a propraetor, or legate, but an inscription found in Cyprus proves that the island did come under the direct rule of the Roman Senate in the person of a provincial governor called a proconsul. Similarly in Greece, during the rule of Augustus Caesar, Achaia was a province under the direct rule of the Roman Senate, but when Tiberius was emperor it was ruled directly by him. Later, under Emperor Claudius, it again became a senatorial province, according to Tacitus. A fragment of a rescript from Claudius to the Delphians of Greece has been discovered, which refers to Gallio’s proconsulship. Therefore, Acts 18:12 is correct in speaking of Gallio as the “proconsul” when Paul was there in Corinth, the capital of Achaia. (See GALLIO.) Also, an inscription on an archway in Thessalonica (fragments of which are preserved in the British Museum) shows that Acts 17:8 is correct in speaking of “the city rulers” (“politarchs,” governors of the citizens), even though this title is not found in classical literature.

To this day in Athens the Areopagus, or Mars’ Hill, where Paul preached, stands as a silent witness to the truthfulness of Acts. (Acts 17:19) Medical terms and expressions found in Acts are in agreement with the Greek medical writers of that time. Modes of travel used in the Middle East in the first century were essentially as described in Acts: overland, by walking, horseback, or horse-drawn chariots (23:24, 31, 32; 8:27-38); overseas, by cargo ships. (21:1-3; 27:1-5) Those ancient vessels did not have a single rudder but were controlled by two large oars, hence accurately spoken of in the plural number. (27:40) The description of Paul’s voyage by ship to Rome (27:1-44) as to the time taken, the distance traveled, and the places visited is acknowledged by modern seamen familiar with the region as completely reliable and trustworthy.

Acts of Apostles was accepted without question as inspired Scripture and canonical by Scripture catalogers from the second through the fourth centuries C.E. Portions of the book, along with fragments of the four Gospels, are found in the Chester Beatty No. 1 papyrus manuscript (P45) of the third century C.E. The Michigan No. 1571 manuscript (P38) of the third or fourth century contains portions of chapters 18 and 19, and a fourth-century manuscript, Aegyptus No. 8683 (P8), contains parts of chapters 4 through 6. The book of Acts was quoted from by Polycarp of Smyrna about 115 C.E., by Ignatius of Antioch about 110 C.E., and by Clement of Rome perhaps as early as 95 C.E. Athanasius, Jerome, and Augustine of the fourth century all confirm the earlier listings that included Acts.

HIGHLIGHTS OF ACTS

• The beginning of the Christian congregation and a record of its zealous public witnessing in the face of fierce opposition
• Time covered: 33 to c. 61 C.E.
• Before ascending to heaven, Jesus commissions followers to be witnesses of him as Jehovah’s Messiah (1:1-26)
• After receiving holy spirit, disciples boldly witness in many languages (2:1–5:42)
• Jews in Jerusalem from many lands are given witness in their own languages; about 3,000 baptized
• Peter and John are arrested and taken before Sanhedrin; fearlessly declare they will not stop witnessing
• Filled with holy spirit, all the disciples speak the word of God boldly; multitudes become believers
• Apostles are arrested; an angel releases them; brought before the Sanhedrin, they declare: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men”
• Persecution results in expansion of the witness (6:1–9:43)
• Stephen is seized, gives fearless witness, dies a martyr
• Persecution scatters all but apostles; witness given in Samaria; Ethiopian eunuch baptized
• Jesus appears to the persecutor Saul; Saul is converted, baptized, begins zealous ministry
• Under divine direction the witness reaches uncircumcised Gentiles (10:1–12:25)
• Peter preaches to Cornelius, his family, and his friends; these believe, receive holy spirit, and are baptized
• Apostle’s report of this prompts further expansion among nations
• Paul’s evangelizing tours (13:1–21:26)
• First tour: To Cyprus, Asia Minor. Paul and Barnabas boldly witness publicly and in synagogues; thrown out of Antioch; mobbed in Iconium; first treated like gods in Lystra, then Paul is stoned
• Circumcision issue decided by governing body at Jerusalem; Paul and Barnabas assigned to inform brothers that circumcision is not required but that believers must abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, and from fornication
• Second tour: Back through Asia Minor, into Macedonia and Greece. Imprisoned in Philippi, but jailer and his family get baptized; Jews stir up trouble in Thessalonica and Beroea; in Athens, Paul preaches in synagogue, in the marketplace, then on the Areopagus; 18-month ministry in Corinth
• Third tour: Asia Minor, Greece. Fruitful Ephesian ministry, then uproar by silversmiths; apostle admonishes elders
• Paul is arrested, witnesses to officials, is taken to Rome (21:27–28:31)
• After mobbing in Jerusalem, Paul before Sanhedrin
• As prisoner, Paul gives fearless witness before Felix, Festus, and King Herod Agrippa II, also on boat en route to Rome
• A prisoner in Rome, Paul continues to find ways to preach about Christ and the Kingdom

Does this thoroughly answer your question about what were the acts of the Apostles?



The names of the original 12 selected are given at Matthew 10:2-4; Mark 3:16-19, and Luke 6:13-16. One of the original 12, Judas Iscariot, proved to be a traitor, thereby fulfilling earlier prophecies found in Psalms 41:9; 109:8. The remaining 11 faithful apostles are again listed at Acts 1:13.

Some of the apostles had been disciples of John the Baptizer before becoming Jesus’ disciples. (John 1:35-42) Eleven of them were evidently Galileans (Acts 2:7), Judas Iscariot being considered the sole Judean. They were from the working class; four were definitely fishermen by trade; one had been a tax collector. (Matthew 4:18-21; 9:9-13) At least two of them appear to have been cousins of Jesus (James and John, the sons of Zebedee). They were men who were viewed by the religious leaders as “unlettered and ordinary,” indicating that their education was elementary and not from the schools of higher learning. A number of them, including Peter (Cephas), were married men.—Acts 4:13; 1 Corinthians 9:5.

Of the 12, Peter, James, and John seem to have enjoyed the closest relationship with Jesus. They alone witnessed the resurrection of Jairus’ daughter (Mark 5:35-43) and the transfiguration of Jesus (Matthew 17:1, 2), and they accompanied him farther into the garden of Gethsemane than the other apostles on the night of his arrest. (Mark 14:32, 33) A special affinity appears to have existed between Jesus and John, and John is accepted as being the one referred to as “the disciple whom Jesus used to love.”—John 21:20-24; 13:23.

Does this answer your question about who are the Apostles? You should try and remember all 12 of their names. I am trying to do this myself but it's hard. I don't have Jesus' perfect mind. :)



That's easy! What Does the Bible Really Teach? The entire book is available online, free of charge at http://watchtower.org/e/bh/article_00.htm. I would recommend you study the book with any Jehovah's Witnesses (Isaiah 43:10) in case you have any questions they can answer them for you. We NEVER ever charge for studying and we never charge for our literature. Our world wide work is supported entirely by volunteer donations of any amount. The main goal that drives us is helping people take in accurate knowledge of Jehovah and Jesus through God's word, the Bible, because it means their everlasting life. (John 17:3)



Revelation 7:1 - 8. The 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 must refer to this spiritual Israel (or New Jerusalem) for several valid reasons. The listing does not match that of natural Israel at Numbers chapter 1. Also Jerusalem’s temple and priesthood and all the tribal records of natural Israel were permanently destroyed, lost forever, long before John had his vision in 96 C.E. But more important, John received his vision upon a background of the aforementioned developments from and after Pentecost 33 C.E. In the light of such events, John’s vision of those standing on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb (whom natural Israel had rejected) revealed the number of this spiritual Israel of God to be 144,000 “bought from among mankind.”—Re 7:4; 14:1, 4.

This expression, found only once in Scripture, refers to spiritual Israel rather than to racial descendants of Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel. (Genesis 32:22-28) The Bible speaks of “Israel in a fleshly way” (1 Corinthians 10:18), as well as spiritual Israel made up of those for whom descent from Abraham is not a requirement. (Matthew 3:9) The apostle Paul, when using the expression “the Israel of God,” shows that it has nothing to do with whether one is a circumcised descendant of Abraham or not.—Galatians 6:15, 16.

The prophet Hosea foretold that God, in rejecting the nation of natural Israel in favor of this spiritual nation, which includes Gentiles, would say “to those not my people: ‘You are my people.’” (Hosea 2:23; Romans 9:22-25) In due time the Kingdom of God was taken away from the nation of natural Jews and given to a spiritual nation bringing forth Kingdom fruitage. (Matthew 21:43) To be sure, natural Jews were included in spiritual Israel. The apostles and others who received holy spirit at Pentecost in 33 C.E. (about 120), those added on that day (about 3,000), and those that later increased the number to about 5,000 were all Jews and proselytes. (Acts 1:13-15; 2:41; 4:4) But even at that, they were, as Isaiah described them, “a mere remnant” saved out of that cast-off nation.—Isaiah 10:21, 22; Romans 9:27.

I can't talk about the 144,000 without also including the "great crowd" who are immediately mentioned right after in Revelation 7:9, 10.

The apostle John first refers to the sealing of 144,000 slaves of God “out of every tribe of the sons of [spiritual] Israel.” (Revelation 7:2-8) After this, he saw in a vision “a great crowd” out of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues. These ascribe their salvation to God and to the Lamb as they stand before God’s throne. They have come out of “the great tribulation,” they serve God in his temple, and he spreads his tent over them. All their hunger and thirst are to be ended and every tear is to be wiped from their eyes as his Son (the Lamb; John 1:29) guides them to the waters of life.—Revelation 7:9-17.

Well who is the "great crowd" you may asked? The key to the identification of the “great crowd” is found within the description of them in Revelation chapter 7 and in obviously parallel passages. Revelation 7:15-17 speaks of God as ‘spreading his tent over them,’ of their being guided to “fountains of waters of life,” and of God’s wiping “every tear from their eyes.” At Revelation 21:2-4 we find parallel expressions: ‘God’s tent being with mankind,’ his ‘wiping every tear from their eyes,’ and ‘death being no more.’ The vision there presented is concerning persons not in heaven, from where the ‘New Jerusalem comes down,’ but on earth, among mankind.

This poses the question: If the “great crowd” are persons who gain salvation and remain on earth, how could they be said to be ‘standing before God’s throne and before the Lamb’? (Revelation 7:9) The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of the one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Psalms 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19) In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, “the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person” are depicted as seeking to hide themselves “from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Revelation 6:15-17; compare Luke 21:36.) It thus appears that the “great crowd” is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to “stand” as approved by [Jehovah] God and the Lamb, or Jesus Christ, King of the Heavenly Kingdom.

The Lamb’s guiding them to “fountains of waters of life” finds a parallel at Revelation 22:17, which says: “The spirit and the bride keep on saying: ‘Come!’ And let anyone hearing say: ‘Come!’ and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.” The “bride” is clearly identified in the Scriptures as the anointed Christian congregation, espoused to the heavenly Bridegroom, Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 5:25-27; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 19:7-9; 21:9-11) The invitation to “take life’s water free” presented by the heavenly “bride” class is obviously open to an unlimited number of persons, “anyone that wishes.” Likewise unnumbered are the “great crowd,” the vision at Revelation 7:9 thereby harmonizing with that at Revelation 22:17.

The sum of the evidence, therefore, points to the “great crowd” as representing all those persons who are not of the heavenly “bride” class, or 144,000 sealed ones, but who stand approved at the time of the “great tribulation” and are preserved alive on earth.

I hope that wasn't too confusing.



No problem.

Last edited by kxmode on 07 Oct 2010, 1:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

What is the relevance of the 144,000, then? Who is keeping count? Does the number serve any functional purpose for "us"?

Isaiah is not talking about the restoration of the earthly kingdom. He's talking about a complete restoration of the world as it was before the fall of Adam, which will happen at the end of time. This has obviously not yet happened (unless, of course, you read it in "prophetic perfect" tense; this, however, is not how it is written).

Isaiah 65:17-20 says: "For I will create a new heaven and a new earth; the past events will not be remembered or come to mind. Then be glad and rejoice forever in what I am creating; for I will create Jerusalem to be a joy, and its people to be a delight. I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people. The sound of weeping and crying will no longer be heard in her. In her, a nursing infant will no longer live only a few days, or an old man not live out his days. Indeed, the youth will die at a hundred years, and the one who misses a hundred years will be cursed."

The sounds to me like a description of the millennial kingdom which occurs after the end of the tribulation. Eschatological writings are always difficult, but it sounds to me "the youth will die at a hundred years" refers to the possibility of the survivors of the tribulation continuing to marry and have children, in which they are still young at 100 years. While Jesus will reign through the millennium, apparently those children will still be able to choose whether they believe in Christ or not. Hence "the one who misses a hundred years will be cursed." Now, I admit the Bible does not make this quite so clear, so as to whether this is the correct realization of scripture will likely only be determined when Jesus returns. Regardless, we do not live an Edenic existence, nor did the remnant who rebuilt Jerusalem and the Temple have the experience, either.

Isaiah 65:25--The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat stray like the ox, but the serpent's food will be dust! They will not do what is evil or destroy on My entire holy mountain," says the Lord.

Reference to Jerusalem and the "holy mountain" refer specifically to the Jerusalem and the "holy mountain" as understood by Isaiah and the Jews. So while the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem could very well be spirit, the Bible teaches the resurrection from the dead and "glorified bodies," a physical presence in the City.

Further, there is evidence that there are those in heaven who do have something akin to a physical presence there, though this need not apply to all dead saints at this time.

Genesis 5:24--Enoch walked with God, and he was not there, because God took him.

2 Kings 2:11--As they continued walking and talking, a chariot of fire with horses of fire suddenly appeared and separated the two of them. Then Elijah went up into heaven in the whirlwind.

Deuteronomy 34:5-6--So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, as the Lord had said. He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab facing Beth-peor, and no one to this day knows where his grave is. [This hints that Moses was taken directly to heaven in bodily form, both Moses and Elijah were present at the mount of transfiguration]

And, of course, the ascension to heaven of the resurrected Jesus who possessed a physical, bodily form. We know this because certain women and other disciples had physical contact with Jesus, thus proving His physical presence after the resurrection rather than simply being a ghost.

Apparently heaven and the New Jerusalem are places where men and women are both allowed physical presence as in the above examples and where the spirits of the saints are given new, perfect bodies, and will one day return in that state.

Haggai 1:3-4 says: The word of the Lord came through Haggai the prophet: "Is it time for you yourselves to live in your paneled houses, while this house lies in ruins?"

The word "house" refers specifically to the temple.

Hagai 1:14-15--The Lord stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, the spirit of the high priest Joshua son of Jehozadak, and the spirit of all the remnant of the people. They began work on the house of Yahweh of Hosts, their God, on the twenty-fourth day of the sixth month, in the second year of King Darius.

No mention of an Edenic existence here. No mention of any "new heaven" or "new earth."

In summary, I get what you are saying about the concept of a spiritual Jerusalem, and I don't think it's entirely incompatible. But the problem is some of the things you are talking about are contradictory. It's very easy to just quote from different sources of literature, websites, and so forth, but I'm concerned that the information is not entirely accurate.

I hope this has helped somewhat.

See this is why I don't like to discuss this information. There's too many layers... too many questions... too many "well it contradicts itself" comments. It's like playing on a mountain that could at any moment be consumed by an avalanche.

I will only say that the 144,000 was established "after" Jesus' death, and not before. The reason the 144,000 wasn't sealed before 1914 has to do with an apostasy that would grow within the early Christianity. This apostasy among professed Christians was foretold by the apostle Paul at 2 Thessalonians 2:3. He specifically mentioned certain apostates, such as Hymenaeus, Alexander, and Philetus. (1 Titus 1:19, 20; 2 Timothy 2:16-19) Among the varied causes of apostasy set forth in apostolic warnings were: lack of faith (Hebrews 3:12), lack of endurance in the face of persecution (Hebrews 10:32-39), abandonment of right moral standards (2 Peter 2:15-22), the heeding of the "counterfeit words" of false teachers and "misleading inspired utterances" (2 Peter 2:1-3; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 2:16-19; compare Proverbs 11:9), and trying "to be declared righteous by means of law" (Galatians 5:2-4). While still making profession of faith in God's Word, apostates may forsake his service by treating lightly the preaching and teaching work that he assigned to followers of Jesus Christ. (Luke 6:46; Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20) They may also claim to serve God but reject his representatives, his visible organization, and then turn to 'beating' their former associates to hinder their work. (Jude 8, 11; Numbers 16:19-21; Matthew 24:45-51) Apostates often seek to make others their followers. (Acts 20:30; 2 Peter 2:1, 3) Such ones willfully abandoning the Christian congregation thereby become part of the "antichrist." (1 John 2:18, 19) As with the apostate Israelites, destruction is likewise foretold for apostates from the Christian congregation. - 2 Peter 2:1; Hebrews 6:4-8.

During the period of persecution that the early Christian congregation experienced at the hands of the Roman Empire, professed Christians were at times induced to deny their Christian discipleship, and those who did so were required to signify their apostasy by making an incense offering before some pagan god or by openly blaspheming the name of Christ.

It is evident that there is a distinction between a 'falling' due to weakness and the 'falling away' that constitutes apostasy. The latter implies a definite and willful withdrawal from the path of righteousness. (1 John 3:4-8; 5:16, 17) Whatever its apparent basis, whether intellectual, moral, or spiritual, it constitutes a rebellion against God and a rejection of his Word of truth.-2 Thessalonians 2: 3, 4

Christianity fell away from its roots and became as a whole apostate. It then transformed itself into another mutated religion of pagan and Christian beliefs. There simply weren't enough true Christians alive back then to fill the 144,000. That number would be filled once Jesus assumed the throne in 1914.

Is it really hard to connect all the dots? I wasn't born with this knowledge. I have to find it through personal study. Being one of Jehovah's Witnesses affords me with a multitude of biblical truths that many sadly don't even know (like "does God have a name?") What I don't understand about people is that for the most part people like truth. Why are so many apprehensive to the truth of God's word? 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4 clearly explains "If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things [Satan the Devil] has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." In other words the truth of Gods word is literally "veiled among those who are perishing" and they don't even realize it. I sometimes go to bed at night crying because I know when the end comes a lot of people who I think are decent people are not going to make it. John 17:3 means your personal salvation. I can't save you, all I can do is be a good neighbor and out of love tell you about the end of this system of things. It's then between you and Jehovah. Because when the end comes the only thing that's important is if you'll be in his book of life. (Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5)

Something heavy to think about.

If something is contradictory, then it is untrue. And if something you have learned is untrue, then you have learned it in error. Why don't you like discussing this information? People naturally tend to feel uncomfortable when they are shown that something is false. It's normal to feel that way. However, it is also normal to feel a sense of relief when the truth is revealed and you are finally able to accept it. Several things you have mentioned are questionable. QUESTION THEM.




What evidence do we have of this apostasy? Why are writings that became what we call the Bible consistent with ancient manuscripts? See, if there was an apostasy, the Bible would have read much differently today than it does. But as it is, MOST Bible translations are consistent with ancient manuscripts--even the same manuscripts from whence you get the NWT.

I'm not saying that there has never been ANY kind of apostasy. No doubt heretical viewpoints have prevailed in one place or another, and no doubt those heresies continue to rear their ugly heads today. But the only possible vestige of a lasting apostasy or heretical understanding of Christ and Christ's teaching would be strictly the text of the Bible itself. But it appears the Bible has been untouched by any apostasy. If not, then the apostasy began with the life and teaching of Jesus, which we know because the New Testament was compiled quickly very soon after the events happened. But since JWs Bible is translated from those very same manuscripts, it would appear that Watchtower is very accepting of the same apostasy. And if the Bible is cherry-picked and "edited" to be consistent with theology, then perhaps it is not most Bible translations that err, but rather only one in particular used for a specific purpose.



There is no evidence to support this. Where is Jesus' throne? I'd love nothing more than to meet Him face to face and worship Him. Why would the Savior I love deny me this?

Quite simply, there IS no invisible Christ on earth! Jesus Himself taught that just as the lightening can be seen from the east to the west, so it will be when He returns. There is no secret. There is no invisible Savior. Jesus wants to be seen and known. When Jesus returns, it will be impossible for anyone, even unbelievers, to deny.

Likewise, as good neighbors and out of love for Christ, we seek to show those among us who are in error how to live in harmony with faith in Jesus. I will be more than happy to discuss these things with you further!