The Truth About Christmas

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... and remembering the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week can really set one apart.

Interesting posts on this thread.

There are many amusing ironies in the biggest holiday in the Western World.

Christians whistfully long for a "non materialistic" christmas of a non existent past.

Jews complain about having to hype up their holiday of Hannukka to compete with Christmas and make Hannukka ( a rather unimportant jewish holiday) as glitzy as the important christian holiday it competes with ( ie Jewish adults lament having to comform to christian influences).

Both points of view are laughable.

In the centuries when christmas really was Christ Mass (after paganism but before madison avenue) it hardly got noticed at all.

Making Hannukka into "Jewish Christmas" (as grade school kids call it) is not Judiaism conforming to Christianity- its both faiths succumbing to paganism.

The christmas season should be second fiddle to Easter ( which also has pagan trappings as someone above pointed out), and even within the Christmas season the most important day is supposed to be January 6th the-the feast of Epiphany- on the final 12th day of christmas.

December 25th is not even one of "the 12 days of christmas".

The day his divinity became manifest (the epiphany) is supposed to be more important than the day he was born.

Despite the ironies and contradictions and the fact that some folks go overboard with gift giving I dont see anything wrong with Xmas over all.

Humans need a festival of lights to get through the mid winter.

Its better to have the messages of peace and charity as afterthoughts on a glitzy materialistic holiday that actually gets observed, than have them be forgotten about entirely on a holiday that gets no notice at all.

I'm changing the subject?! OH please...

All I'm saying is that if there is any cause for celebrating ANYTHING, it is God which brings about the cause. If pagans come to understand that and replace their pagan observances with God-ly observances, they have not sinned.

It is not mixing the sacred with profane. It is replacing profane with sacred, celebrating that what once was unclean has been made clean. Out with the old, in with the new.

Gentiles are not required to make the OT observances. The few Jewish friends I've spoken with, whether they are Christian converts or not, all seem to agree that while THEY observe the OT, they think it's a bad idea for Christians or Gentiles to do the same UNLESS one is determined to convert wholeheartedly to Judaism. The NT declares that one should not declare common what God has made clean. It is, therefore, acceptable for Gentiles to make and keep holidays that are culturally significant (just as the Jews do) IF that means their holidays and festivals honor the one true God.

Even the writings of what we Christians call the old covenant or Old Testament acknowledge those things which the heathen believed, even giant sea-crocodiles. Did Leviathan actually exist? Maybe, and maybe not. But Leviathan DID make up part of the "profanity" of cultures outside Abrahamic culture and religious observance. That makes Leviathan unclean and unfit for the Holy Scriptures. Yet Leviathan is within the scriptures. And they say that, assuming Leviathan DID exist, it is God who made Leviathan.

If there is some god who rules over the sky and throws down lightning bolts in His wrath, it is God. If there is some god who controls the waves of the oceans and allows sailors safe passage or destroys them and their ships, it is God. If their is a deity who brings wisdom, it is God. If there is a god who makes war and peace, it is God. We aren't mixing profane and sacred here. We're just giving credit where it's actually due, correcting the heathen for right understanding.

So if you pick out a day to celebrate Mars, the bringer of war, instead use that day to celebrate God who brings victory to those who believe in Him and obey Him. If you have feasts and give gifts to celebrate Saturn, instead have feasts and give gifts to celebrate the gifts God has bestowed upon us. We Christians believe that Christ is the greatest gift given. Thus there is no harm whatsoever in celebrating that!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2M8NWjcBQo[/youtube]

see the entire zeitgeist movie to connect more curious dots of history...

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

I made that request first.


... and He has also let us know what is good to celebrate ... and His reasons go far beyond any of our own.

"Counter-Prayer" would, in this instance most resemble what occurs when something of great evil is happening. Praying during war for its end would fit. Or to choose a fictional example, praying to drive out the devil like in the Exorcist. Or when the Martians invade. Take your pick. I suspect that it fits Halloween better than Christmas though. Christmas doesn't seem to hold quite the same stigma of unmitigated evil as Halloween does.

I see no real reason why a religion can't indulge in a bit of "taking it back" so to speak. So what if dragging a tree indoors used to be some big pagan rite? Christianity is just "taking it back". Also, I'll wager that most people have no idea WHY people used to hump a bloody great big pine tree around their houses. I'll accept "because the baby Jesus likes sparklies" as a good a reason as any. If someone wanted to take the penitent route they could always treat "getting pine needles out of the carpet for months afterwards" as a penance. How about "having to eat turkey for a MONTH"? That's pretty penitential, as these things go.

Even if they managed to ban "Christmas" (and little baby Jesus knows they've had a fair go at that over here in the past few years with their bloody awful "Winterval" and other such PC BS) I'd still give my family gifts because I like them, and I want to. In fact, I wouldn't overly mind if Big Adult Jesus came back and found the guy who invented "Winterval" and punched him in the face. Then gave everyone presents. That would be pretty awesome.

What about the Christmas tree, which is now part of the Catholic tradition?

An article in the Catholic newspaper L’Osservatore Romano pointed out that back in ancient times, many evergreens, such as “holly, butcher’s broom, laurel and branches of pine or fir were considered to have magical or medicinal powers that would ward off illness.” It went on to say: “On Christmas Eve, 24 December, Adam and Eve would be commemorated with the highly popular episode of the Tree of the earthly Paradise . . . The tree ought to have been an apple tree, but since an apple tree would have been inappropriate in winter, a fir tree was set on the stage and some apples put on its branches or, to symbolize the future coming of Redemption, wafers prepared with crushed biscuits in special moulds that were symbols of the Eucharistic presence of Jesus, as well as sweets and gifts for children.” What about after that time?

Mentioning that the tradition of using a Christmas tree first started in Germany in the 16th century, L’Osservatore Romano noted: “Italy was one of the last countries to accept the Christmas tree, partly because of a rather widespread rumour that the use of Christmas trees was a Protestant practice and should thus be replaced by the crib [the Nativity scene].” Pope Paul VI “began the tradition of setting up [in St. Peter’s Square, Rome] a massive Christmas tree” near the Nativity scene.

Do you find it acceptable that a religious leader would give a seemingly Christian meaning to events and symbols whose roots go back to ancient paganism? As to the proper course, the Scriptures admonish true Christians: “What fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness?”—2 Corinthians 6:14-17.

I wonder how many people have ever heard about the ham for Easter/Ishtar Fertility Goddess Sun-Worship Day dinner being a symbolic payback to the boar that killed Tammuz, son of Simaramus, wife of Nirmod (builder of Babel) and who was born on December 25th?

"They know not what they do ...", and yes, I used to be one of them too.

Given the month I thought this was worth another look.

How long, Lord, how long?

I will tell you a little story. It is said there was somewhere in Russia a very bad man, a robber and leader of a band of robbers. One day he was getting ready to attack and pillage a village - but suddenly he realized. WAIT, he says - I just remembered. This is a holy day, a saint's day [we are not told which saint]. We can't rob anyone today, it would be a sin and God would punish us.

So they called off the raid.

The joke here, the serious point here - besides the fact that robbery is sinful ANY day - is that in the Roman and Orthodox calendars pretty much [like I say, I avoid absolutes even when ALMOST absolutely certain] is a saint's day or some other commemoration and therefore holy.- which would put our pious robber out of business.

Would someone please stop to think: Even 2000 years ago, is there ANY day in the year that had not already been used for celebrating by some other religion?

So pulleeeze, folks, enough with the stealing Saturnalia stuff. As for elements in the celebrating that people do at Christmas, yes there are incorporated pagan bits. So? Don't start me ranting on that very mouldy red herring.

There is nothing very religious - any religion - about an artificial pine with electric lights and plastic tinsel and Karaoke Barbie in Hallmark wrapping paper down below.

It is incredibly far from sermons based on the evergreen as it is from Germanic tree spirits.

But it is a whole lot more fun than Atheist Trees or bare apartments, and SOME people actually come to associate the less commercialized parts of the celebration with [Oh, go ahead, BE trite] the Reason for the Season.

^^^

Well said.

Jesus said, as recorded in John 4:24, "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." Did you get the point of that scripture? For our worship to be acceptable to God, it must conform to the truth revealed in the pages of the Bible and it must be guided by the holy spirit. If you consider yourself a Christian and you celebrate Christmas, knowing full well its pagan origins, then can you really say you are worshiping God in spirit and truth? Food for thought.

Are people really shocked to hear that Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25-th? I mean, seriously? Are there so-called Christians that aren't aware of it?

That's right, Christmas is a bunch of commercial aids subverted from paganism, but that does not tell the whole story. Have you guys ever wondered why pagans celebrated their sun party in winter? It was so that the sun could come, but there is more, the pagan myth had a practical value. Forcing families to get together and share resources and also the usage of flames was a nice aid to survive winter. It probably also indirectly caused a reduction of consumption of resources until that date as a means to save for winter.

Anyway, I got to admit this thread bugs me.

So, in other words, they are 100% legend. brief account in the bible = Legend. The rest is also a legend = legend.

You mean that neither Jesus nor the gospel writers were bothered by the fact that they were Astrologers and that it didn't stop the authors to use the magoi for an appeal to authority. They were just an accessory to imply that Jesus was the so-called Mesiah. It is ironic that they used Astrology for this...

I heard some sinister music when I read Satan, lol. Nothing indicates the magoi were evil, they warned the family after finding out Herod's true intentions.


You mean, except for both being legends that may have been loosely based on real characters.

And you know what? We created a much better thing in the process. Christmas really sets the commerce going. Heck, stores world wide are in red numbers until the Christmas season. It is also a lot funnier. And gifts pwn. Giving "always" is an utter impractical non-sense that is completely unfeasible for real world people, and too much of a good thing becomes tiresome and boring.

This is the reason Jehova's witnesses' lives are hell on earth. It is impossible to follow all the bible fully because the freaking book contradicts with itself at a rate higher than toys are sold during December 24-th.

This guy sounds sad. Possibly an anorexia sufferer as well if he does not like that eating thing. Giving gifts "any time of the year and when his budget allows" probably means never considering how cheap he sounds.


And they grew up to become spoiled brats.

Why does she think God actually cares is the real question.



The guy can't control his spending, blaming Christmas is not going to fix his spending issues.

They secretly know that they will receive a gift later. It is exactly the same kind of pressure, but distributed ALL YEAR LONG. This is actually much worse.


if truth sets people free, why are Christians of all people so active in avoiding it? Strange eh?

Christmas simply has such practical value over the thing they are proposing. There are people in your family that you'd rather care for only once a year. Without Christmas, you would have to care about them at random times a year and that would be potentially more annoying. Plus feasts and food are always awesome.

Last edited by Vexcalibur on 19 Dec 2010, 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

So if you go to Church on Thursday, does that mean you are inadvertently worshiping Thor (the day is named after him)? Or can you still go to Church on Thursdays? See how easy it is to muddy the waters of truth by introducing factors outside of the spirit?

Or let just play this game with Remembrance Day (absolutely NO disrespect intended), does the fact that it falls on November 11 actually make it part of a secret Catholic (I am Catholic btw) plot to actually celebrate the Doctrine of Transubstantiation (as defined on Nov. 11 121,5 at the Fourth Lateran Council)? Is it the secret celebration of the beginning of Sherman's 'March to the Sea'?

By the way, what evidence is there Jesus' birthday was not on December 25th? The bible, as always fails to give any historical account of the facts, so Jesus' birthday could have been ANY date INCLUDING December 25th (That's assuming Jesus was actually ever born).

Last edited by Vexcalibur on 20 Dec 2010, 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

That is a very sweeping statement. Especially considering its place as the most attested book in Ancient History.