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Do you philosophize daily?

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Sand
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21 Nov 2010, 9:54 pm

Aimless wrote:
Squirrelrat wrote:
Yes, I like philosophy. An idea that I'm currently intrigued by is mind-body dualism. I think that people are brain functions, not tangible things. Think about it this way:

Jack and Jill get into a car accident. Jack becomes brain dead, but his body is fine. Jill's brain is fine, but her body is rendered useless. Some doctors are able to transfer Jill's brain into Jack's body. The person resulting from this only has Jill's memories and personality. What has happened to Jack, and what has happened to Jill? Jack is dead, even though his body is alive. His memories and personality only existed as a function of his brain, which is dead. Jill is alive, even though her body is dead. Her brain is still alive and well, so her personality and memories are in tact. What if we could upload a person's mind onto an perfectly functioning artificial brain? Would it not be the same person, even though the medium is different? If you run the same program on two different types of computers, are they not still the same program?


You might enjoy the book "The Mind's I" . It's a collection of essays on the subject of consciousness. It's edited by Douglas Hofstadter and some other guy.


Daniel Dennett.

Since Jill came tumbling after she wasn't in such hot shape either. Was Jack gay after that?



Squirrelrat
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21 Nov 2010, 10:41 pm

Sand wrote:

Daniel Dennett.

Since Jill came tumbling after she wasn't in such hot shape either. Was Jack gay after that?


Jack is dead, unless your definition of a person is a living human body. If Jack is dead, he can't have a sexual orientation. Jill is alive, unless you don't consider all of the mind qualities that make up a person to be a person. The topic of his/her sexual orientation is a whole other ballpark. We don't know Jill's sexual orientation OR gender identity. Jill, for all we know, might be attracted to women and identify as a male, despite his/her previous body. There isn't enough information. And then, is a female to male transsexual who is attracted to women gay, based on his/her biological sex, or straight based on his/her sexual identity?



Sand
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21 Nov 2010, 11:31 pm

Squirrelrat wrote:
Sand wrote:

Daniel Dennett.

Since Jill came tumbling after she wasn't in such hot shape either. Was Jack gay after that?


Jack is dead, unless your definition of a person is a living human body. If Jack is dead, he can't have a sexual orientation. Jill is alive, unless you don't consider all of the mind qualities that make up a person to be a person. The topic of his/her sexual orientation is a whole other ballpark. We don't know Jill's sexual orientation OR gender identity. Jill, for all we know, might be attracted to women and identify as a male, despite his/her previous body. There isn't enough information. And then, is a female to male transsexual who is attracted to women gay, based on his/her biological sex, or straight based on his/her sexual identity?


The concept that all of the self is in the brain is doubtful. The nervous system extends throughout the whole organism.



techstepgenr8tion
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22 Nov 2010, 12:04 am

Sand wrote:
The concept that all of the self is in the brain is doubtful. The nervous system extends throughout the whole organism.

It may be an interesting point as well that if one were to go quadriplegic and loose all sensation below their neck, how much that may change someone's outlook as well as how their fundamental reasoning of their own needs would shift. On the other hand, what defines 'us' just as much rests in our hormones, so the question would would become which dominates the most, is it the pineal and pituitary where if someone were given a new body the brain's glands would take over the thyroid, adrenal, etc. of the new body and reset them to its original program? We can be pretty sure that the new inhabitants cells would start replacing that of the old inhabitant, that dominance would likely say the most.



Sand
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22 Nov 2010, 12:18 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Sand wrote:
The concept that all of the self is in the brain is doubtful. The nervous system extends throughout the whole organism.

It may be an interesting point as well that if one were to go quadriplegic and loose all sensation below their neck, how much that may change someone's outlook as well as how their fundamental reasoning of their own needs would shift. On the other hand, what defines 'us' just as much rests in our hormones, so the question would would become which dominates the most, is it the pineal and pituitary where if someone were given a new body the brain's glands would take over the thyroid, adrenal, etc. of the new body and reset them to its original program? We can be pretty sure that the new inhabitants cells would start replacing that of the old inhabitant, that dominance would likely say the most.


Since nobody has ever had a brain transplant the conjectures are highly theoretical. I am tempted to agree that the brain is dominant in the nervous system but each organism has an original interaction of it's chemistry and neural setup and very surprising things happen when novel procedures are attempted.



techstepgenr8tion
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22 Nov 2010, 12:34 am

Sand wrote:
Since nobody has ever had a brain transplant the conjectures are highly theoretical. I am tempted to agree that the brain is dominant in the nervous system but each organism has an original interaction of it's chemistry and neural setup and very surprising things happen when novel procedures are attempted.

I suppose that's where we'd fall back on what we know to happen when certain organs fail or which ones can be replaced by donors. Then again, admittedly, even the hypothetical assumption that Jack's spinal chord and Jill's brain could ever be connected successfully might already be a loaded one.



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22 Nov 2010, 12:40 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Sand wrote:
Since nobody has ever had a brain transplant the conjectures are highly theoretical. I am tempted to agree that the brain is dominant in the nervous system but each organism has an original interaction of it's chemistry and neural setup and very surprising things happen when novel procedures are attempted.

I suppose that's where we'd fall back on what we know to happen when certain organs fail or which ones can be replaced by donors. Then again, admittedly, even the hypothetical assumption that Jack's spinal chord and Jill's brain could ever be connected successfully might already be a loaded one.


They are making progress in nerve re-connections. It may eventually come about. See http://www.spinal-research.org/display_ ... ord_repair



ruveyn
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22 Nov 2010, 8:34 am

Sand wrote:

You might enjoy the book "The Mind's I" . It's a collection of essays on the subject of consciousness. It's edited by Douglas Hofstadter and some other guy.


Daniel Dennett.

Since Jill came tumbling after she wasn't in such hot shape either. Was Jack gay after that?[/quote]

Jack and Jill went up the hill
They each had a buck and a quarter
When Jill came down
She had two-fifty.
They did not go up for water.

ruveyn



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22 Nov 2010, 8:51 am

ruveyn, this is like the 100-th time there is a malformed quote in your post, please avoid deleting the first [quote] tag...


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22 Nov 2010, 7:17 pm

Sand wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Sand wrote:
The concept that all of the self is in the brain is doubtful. The nervous system extends throughout the whole organism.

It may be an interesting point as well that if one were to go quadriplegic and loose all sensation below their neck, how much that may change someone's outlook as well as how their fundamental reasoning of their own needs would shift. On the other hand, what defines 'us' just as much rests in our hormones, so the question would would become which dominates the most, is it the pineal and pituitary where if someone were given a new body the brain's glands would take over the thyroid, adrenal, etc. of the new body and reset them to its original program? We can be pretty sure that the new inhabitants cells would start replacing that of the old inhabitant, that dominance would likely say the most.


Since nobody has ever had a brain transplant the conjectures are highly theoretical. I am tempted to agree that the brain is dominant in the nervous system but each organism has an original interaction of it's chemistry and neural setup and very surprising things happen when novel procedures are attempted.


Back when I was in Jr. High you first began to hear about organ transplants in the news.
And I thought about what would happen if they could have brain transplants. It immediately occured to me that a "brain transplant" is really a "body transplant".

Jill is getting a new body. Jack is dead.

We later all discussed it for a few minutes in seventh grade Science class and we all came to the same conclusion, and then went on to the lesson of the day.

In the main I still think that is the way to think of it.

Im sure there would be nuances. Like the fact the jack's nervous system and and spinal nerve are still there- so his reflexes would still be there.



Sand
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22 Nov 2010, 7:25 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Sand wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Sand wrote:
The concept that all of the self is in the brain is doubtful. The nervous system extends throughout the whole organism.

It may be an interesting point as well that if one were to go quadriplegic and loose all sensation below their neck, how much that may change someone's outlook as well as how their fundamental reasoning of their own needs would shift. On the other hand, what defines 'us' just as much rests in our hormones, so the question would would become which dominates the most, is it the pineal and pituitary where if someone were given a new body the brain's glands would take over the thyroid, adrenal, etc. of the new body and reset them to its original program? We can be pretty sure that the new inhabitants cells would start replacing that of the old inhabitant, that dominance would likely say the most.


Since nobody has ever had a brain transplant the conjectures are highly theoretical. I am tempted to agree that the brain is dominant in the nervous system but each organism has an original interaction of it's chemistry and neural setup and very surprising things happen when novel procedures are attempted.


Back when I was in Jr. High you first began to hear about organ transplants in the news.
And I thought about what would happen if they could have brain transplants. It immediately occured to me that a "brain transplant" is really a "body transplant".

Jill is getting a new body. Jack is dead.

We later all discussed it for a few minutes in seventh grade Science class and we all came to the same conclusion, and then went on to the lesson of the day.

In the main I still think that is the way to think of it.

Im sure there would be nuances. Like the fact the jack's nervous system and and spinal nerve are still there- so his reflexes would still be there.


You are trying to come to a logical conclusion about a procedure which has too many unknowns for pure reason to handle it. It can only be settled by experiment.



techstepgenr8tion
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22 Nov 2010, 8:40 pm

Sand wrote:
You are trying to come to a logical conclusion about a procedure which has too many unknowns for pure reason to handle it. It can only be settled by experiment.

I think if one were to have something as dramatic happen as, say, remember situations and experiences that they never had, you'd likely see that already with organ receivers. I think that's the general hypothesis that the new body would add little, aside from perhaps glands being inherently stronger or weaker for a while and needing some time to synch.

naturalplastic wrote:
Im sure there would be nuances. Like the fact the jack's nervous system and and spinal nerve are still there- so his reflexes would still be there.

I'm not even so sure about reflexes - unless you're talking about giving Jill Jack's cerebellum, in that case you'd already be mixing brains and lots more strange stuff could come of that.