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Barracuda
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21 Jun 2006, 9:21 pm

emp wrote:
Barracuda -- Ah yes, how could I forget the wisdom of Proverbs:

* Beating your children with a rod is a sure sign of parental love. (Prov 13:24)

* Beating your children will make them less foolish. (Prov 22:15)

* Stay away from "strange women". (Prov 2:16-19).

* Virtuous woman are difficult to find. (Prov 31:10)

* Bad things only happen to bad people. (Prov 12:21)
You show me the bad, What about the good? Or are you not going to show me it?



emp
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21 Jun 2006, 9:30 pm

Barracuda wrote:
You show me the bad, What about the good? Or are you not going to show me it?


Barracuda, "good" and "wisdom" are different things. For example, I can say, "Treat people fairly". That is good, but it is not a pearl of wisdom, nor is it insightful.

I said that the christian bible contains few pearls of wisdom. If you want to know my opinion on the DIFFERENT topic of whether it contains good things, it does contain good things, however it contains MUCH more bad than good.



Last edited by emp on 21 Jun 2006, 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Barracuda
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21 Jun 2006, 9:38 pm

emp wrote:
Barracuda wrote:
You show me the bad, What about the good? Or are you not going to show me it?


Barracuda, "good" and "wisdom" are different things. For example, I can say, "Treat people fairly". That is good, but it is not a pearl of wisdom, nor is it insightful.
Sorry. Proverbs is all advice. In this case I ment the good advice, which is generally considered wise.



emp
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21 Jun 2006, 9:50 pm

Barracuda wrote:
Sorry. Proverbs is all advice. In this case I ment the good advice, which is generally considered wise.


To take an example, Proverbs 3:28 says that you should help your neighbor if you can. This is good, but it is hardly a pearl of wisdom or insightful. Here is another:

Quote:
The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness. (Proverbs 15:2)

So it is saying that fools say foolish things. That is not insightful or wise. It is stating the obvious.

If you compare Proverbs versus Nietzsche, and you ignore all the bad and absurd stuff in Proverbs, then it is like comparing the good advice of an 8yo child versus a learned and studied philosopher of many years.



emp
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21 Jun 2006, 10:07 pm

Likewise for the character of Jesus. He said few or no pearls of wisdom, depending on how low your standards for wisdom are.

If you believe otherwise, prove it by giving me a list of numerous bible references to his pearls of wisdom.

And I emphasize that a statement being good is NOT enough to make it a pearl of wisdom. To be a pearl of wisdom, it must display INSIGHT and particular intelligence, and not be something obvious or something that a 10yo child could think of.



Barracuda
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21 Jun 2006, 10:25 pm

I will not give a large list, just a starter.
1. Jesus says the Golden rule.
2. While most people may not think of it right away, the sermon on the mount contains numerous insights on Jewish rituals. It also has it's sections on murder and adultury and soforth, redefining them.
As I said, stater, not big list.



Roman
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21 Jun 2006, 11:09 pm

Yes there is a wisdom in the Bible and it happends to adress your very question, namely it is a major point NOT to overrate things that are wise (scribes and pharesees were main examples of such), however as you will find bible DID use wisdom to make such point. So it wasn't jsut some stupid guy making excuses.

1 Cor 1: 17-31:

Quote:
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.



1 Cor 13: 8- 13

Quote:
8 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9
For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10
but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13
So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love. .




Natthew 11: 25-26

Quote:
25 At that time, Jesus answered, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you hid these things from the wise and understanding, and revealed them to infants.

26 Yes, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in your sight..


Mark 10:13-15

Quote:
Mar 10: 13 And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. 15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." 16 And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.


Mark 9:33-37

Quote:
Mar 9: 33 And they came to Capernaum. And when he [Jesus] was in the house he asked them, "What were you discussing on the way?" 34 But they kept silent, for on the way they had argued with one another about who was the greatest. 35 And he sat down and called the twelve. And he said to them, "If anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all." 36 And he took a child and put him in the midst of them, and taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37 "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me."


John 9:39-41

Quote:
39And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind." 40Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?" 41Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains."


So yah basically according to my theory they didn't include too much of other kinds of wisdom for a very good reason.



Last edited by Roman on 21 Jun 2006, 11:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Roman
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21 Jun 2006, 11:36 pm

emp wrote:
I disagree with what Roman wrote. Please no-one think that I share Roman's views about women. Also, most of what he wrote has little or no relevance to or connection with this topic, in my opinion.


Here is the connection between what I was saying and the topic of the discussion

1)My experience with women tells me that their choice of partners is based strictly on judgement of who is superior to whom (THIS PART TOOK MOST OF THE BODY OF MY ESSAY)

2)It is common knowledge taht women choose men for their partners

3)1 together with 2 implies that women believe that men are superior to women

4)3 implies that women won't have any problem with biblical claims of male superiority since they feel the same to start with



jonathan79
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22 Jun 2006, 4:42 am

Whereas for christian women, usually it seems that they are unable to critique christianity in the way that a rational woman can critique Nietzsche. Often they seem incapable of saying ANYTHING negative about their religion. i.e. christian women do not typically say, "I like this and this in the bible, but all the sexist stuff is clearly wrong".

Must have missed this part in your first post, I did not know that they agree with the sexist stuff in the bible, I thought they just ignored it. However, I find it hard to believe that ALL women agree with all of it, surely some women must just ignore the sexist parts, or pass it off as an old way of thinking. But, then again, I dont´know any devout christians, so if this is the case then I agree.



emp
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22 Jun 2006, 8:35 am

Roman -- "It is common knowledge taht women choose men for their partners", you say?? W...T...F...??? I am not saying anything more to you.

-----------

jonathan79 wrote:
Must have missed this part in your first post, I did not know that they agree with the sexist stuff in the bible, I thought they just ignored it. However, I find it hard to believe that ALL women agree with all of it, surely some women must just ignore the sexist parts, or pass it off as an old way of thinking. But, then again, I dont´know any devout christians, so if this is the case then I agree.

I am not saying that they agree with the anti-female stuff. I am just saying that typically or often they will do anything to avoid acknowledging that that part of the bible is wrong or bad, because if they acknowledge that any part of the bible is wrong, then that opens the door for finding fault in their religion, and god is supposed to be perfect.

It is OK to find fault in Nietzsche because he is only human. But if you find fault in god, then the whole idea breaks down. So they refuse to acknowledge that the anti-female stuff is wrong or start talking about some other topic or just refuse to talk about it or say something incoherent, etc.

-----------

Sorce wrote:
you don't have to insult us by saying we are incapable of any negative discussion of the bible. I know several women that do, and a simple google search would bring you to sites where such conversations occur.

Much of that discussion is actually arguing over what it means, not acknowledging that parts of the bible are wrong.



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22 Jun 2006, 12:27 pm

emp wrote:
Roman -- "It is common knowledge taht women choose men for their partners", you say?? W...T...F...??? I am not saying anything more to you.


I was referring to straight women. Regardless of your attitude to homosexuality, I was basically thinking about numbers and was saying that my argument would take care of majority of women. As a scientist, I know you never can understand things 100%, in which case you approximate by considering majority of cases.



Xuincherguixe
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23 Jun 2006, 1:49 am

emp

I'm not going to bother reading all of what you wrote, and just assume you're wrong. Sort of like what you do.



jonathan79
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23 Jun 2006, 4:34 am

I am not saying that they agree with the anti-female stuff. I am just saying that typically or often they will do anything to avoid acknowledging that that part of the bible is wrong or bad, because if they acknowledge that any part of the bible is wrong, then that opens the door for finding fault in their religion, and god is supposed to be perfect.

So, you´re saying they ignore it? I´m not sure what you mean here, as I my comparison to Nietzche was based on the assumption that they ignore it, which is what you propose here, but deny in your other response. I assume that when you say, "avoid acknowledging", you mean ignore. I´m not sure if one can make the all inclusive distinction between ignoring and denouncing (is that the distinction you´re trying to make?), as most people will just ignore what Nietzche said, and some will denounce (as with Christianity as Sorce pointed out, but you seem to ignore), but not all fall into the same category. Can you clarify?



emp
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24 Jun 2006, 12:27 am

Xuincherguixe wrote:
emp

I'm not going to bother reading all of what you wrote, and just assume you're wrong. Sort of like what you do.


I see you are still mad at me for saying you are Cher's gigolo. Come on Xuinycherigigalee, it was just a friendly joke :)



emp
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24 Jun 2006, 12:32 am

jonathan79 wrote:
So, you´re saying they ignore it? I´m not sure what you mean here, as I my comparison to Nietzche was based on the assumption that they ignore it, which is what you propose here, but deny in your other response. I assume that when you say, "avoid acknowledging", you mean ignore. I´m not sure if one can make the all inclusive distinction between ignoring and denouncing (is that the distinction you´re trying to make?), as most people will just ignore what Nietzche said, and some will denounce (as with Christianity as Sorce pointed out, but you seem to ignore), but not all fall into the same category. Can you clarify?


For an example that is similar to what I was talking about, have a look at jaguars_fan's first post in the following thread, and notice how he avoids answering the questions.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/asperger.htm ... ic&t=14627

Similarly, some christian women will not say that a certain part of their bible is right or wrong, they will just avoid answering the question by talking about something else. Like how jaguars_fan's is doing over there.
Whereas in the Nietzsche situation, the women do acknowledge that they disagree with some of Nietzsche's statements.



sc
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01 Jul 2006, 5:50 pm

Emp, you are fairly well known for your insults against Christianity. All you do is focus on the negatives, you proclaim to be a Satanist and just stir up problems.

Even other Satanists don't agree with your methods.

A hater is a hater, you lack subjectivity and will not say anything nice because you are indeed a hateful person.

You even tried to use me in a few of my posts to side with you. Leave me out of your social obsession of put downs and non-subjective satanic hate talk.

Bully..