Islam emerges as key issue for GOP (2011)

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Our countries aren't oppressive s**tholes, and if we'd like to keep it that way we'd better not order Muslims to build mud hut mosques while we construct Notre Dames. What they do in Iranistan has nothing to do with the values we stand for here; it's our freedoms that make the west tolerable.

Have you been to Blackburn or Bradford recently?

I should clarify it by saying that Blackburn is an old industrial town in east Lancashire. From the 1960s onwards migrants from the Asian subcontinent (mainly Muslim) flocked to Blackburn and towns like it. In time, they colonised whole areas to such an extent that it would be unwise for a white native to walk around parts of them at night (Asian youths have attacked and killed white men and vice versa). There are that many mosques in Blackburn that even some Muslims are saying that there's enough and there is a lot of bitterness on the issue on both sides of the divide. You can tour the town and see areas segregated into white BNP areas and Muslim areas. In another town, in the north west there are Northern Irish-style peace walls keeping the tribes apart.

This isn't multiculturalism or tolerance. This is sectarian division.

We need to halt (or severely restrict) the tide of immigration from Muslim nations. Otherwise I fear the rise of extremist movements like the EDL.

I lived in inner city Birmingham, in an Asian ghetto. It was far more pleasant than living in a housing estate full of white yobs, as people mostly kept to themselves. We were only robbed once there, as opposed to three or four times in the same time span in Ireland. White culture is as despicable as any other racial stereotypes.

In any case, multiculturalism is an unsustainable policy. Muslims (ordinary Muslims, not fanatics) believe that Sharia law is just, and it would be a sad day that England would dissolve again into a Theocracy. However, I am not convinced Muslims will ever be the majority in England. Millions of Irish emigrated to America, one of the most monumental movements of people in history, and yet only a quarter of Americans are of Irish decent. I don't think movement on that scale will ever come from the Islamic World.

The number of Mosques is irrelevant; if they want to build a hundred mosques it's their right. We have six churches in my hometown of 3,000 people, yet Atheists put up with it. White Christians have no rights to be hypocritical by raising hell any time a Mosque opens.



Islam is an ideology; a belief that Apostasy and Heresy warrant murder does not breed peace. Racial profiling is wrong, but ideological profiling is arguable.

Let me get this straight: People are arguing that because of racial divisions within England we should be intolerant of Muslims. Could it possibly be that those racial divisions were caused by intolerance in the first place? Just saying.

To be honest, in my mind this whole argument is very Eurocentric (and Americentric). We view our societies with their inordinate amount of Christian influence on government, as superior. Could it possibly be that other people want something different? Now, I am not condoning some of the more extreme Islamic practices like homophobia and attacking women for wanting to be educated. I those practices are despicable.

On the other hand, Christianity has done some equal despicable things in its history. The problem isn't a particular religion, but FUNDAMENTALISM. The problem is, Islamic society hasn't progressed to the point yet where most people are more moderate. That seems to require industrialization and social change. That's what happened in Europe and (parts of) the USA. And, if we show them that we don't want to completely destroy their religion, that is what will probably happen with the immigrant communities. And given time, hopefully it will happen in the Middle East as well.

Could it possibly be that those racial divisions were caused by intolerance in the first place?

While I am not an advocate of racial profiling, I have to say, probably not. People tend to stick to their own communities when they emmigrate; I would certainly move to an Irish area. Racism only exacerbates the situation.

Don't dance around the issue of the religion itself. The Koran claims it is the literal true word of God; there is no room for the metaphorification that allowed Christianity to accommodate egalitarianism and ecumenicalism. The Koran even specifically warns against trying to bend the meaning of the book. There is no room in Islam for 21st century ethics.

This is not racist. Islam is not a race. Other than that, I agree with you.

It could be considered sectarian or religious intolerance perhaps. But racist? No. There are quite a few white Muslims in Britain these days. Having said that though there is an overlap as most Muslims are of South Asian descent here in the UK.

I don't suppose anyone is taking into account the extreme demographic changes that have been taking place in these areas for 40 years, leading to the phenomenon of 'white flight'? Those who are left behind in these areas are, often as is described, mainly the underclass.

That's true, racism is the wrong word. But it most of these comments are still very prejudice.

As for racism not causing all of this segregation: True, immigrants often cluster together. But I don't think China Town has quite the bad reputation some of these Islamic areas you are talking about do. It doesn't always have to end up that way.

And I don't know about it being impossible for Islam to be more moderate. I know a Muslim from school and although some of his views are very conservative and I strongly disapprove of, in most ways he seems like a normal guy. And as for the things he does take strong views on, it's not like he expects the government to go and make them into law. And, for that matter, most of these views would be shared by fundamentalist Christians.

China Town is fine. I have no more fear of a black ghetto than a white ghetto.




Forgive me if I'm skeptical. I've heard two hundred Muslims from my Uni give a standing ovation to "beating = wrong, slavery = wrong, stoning in some circumstances = right". No other comment in the whole debate got so much as a clap. Most people are decent most of the time, but I believe Islam can easily drive believers to do abhorrent things in "some circumstances". If a man claims to believe something terrible, I tend to believe him.



Damn straight. "Family Values" is a codeword for homophobia and sexism. But they aren't into stoning at least.

Yes, this guy might well support the stoning of gays. To say I strongly disaprove would be an understatement. However, he doesn't DO it--and there are openly gay guys at my school. That is the more important thing. So while I don't like certain Islamic ideologies, I don't think it's likely that they will manage to get sway in government (I think Islam only makes up 2% of the population) and therefore they won't be practicing the more barbaric tenants of their faith in the west, so I'll put up with it. The fact that they might like to do it is repugnant, but they don't so that makes them not much worse than your average fundamentalist Christian.

I guess the other thing in my mind is that to me I see these human rights issues as a separate, albeit closely related, issue from Islam. To me what we should be doing is pushing the idea that these practices are wrong, not Islam itself. Anyway, let's just face it: if we say that Islam is evil, that's only going to make the relationships between the West and the Middle East that much worse. We need to try to find common ground and understanding.

Such as destructive idea should be challenged. I don't tolerate people who advocate pedophilia or wifebeating, so why would I accept some as*holes beliefs just because he has a dusty book and a beard?



Don't try to be an Apologist; most people here believe in egalitarianism and tolerance, but if a book advocates the stoning of women and the killing of heretics, and claims that these words are literally true, then Islam is evil.

It might be a knee-jerk reflex for moral people to try argue that every doctrine is equally moral, but think about it. Consider the possibility the Koran is an evil book, even if you don't come to that conclusion yourself.

Regardless, if we take the stance that Islam is evil then it is only going to deepen divides.

The other thing I question is whether the GOP really is all that concerned about these issues. Many Republicans would love to stone some gays if given the chance, I'm sure. The reason for their stance is 9/11. And I KNOW that not all (and I suspect that very few) Muslims would support terrorism.

Wrong. A bit of quick research finds that there is a liberal Muslim movement, which tries to reconcile Islam with Western ethics. No doubt it isn't as wide spread as it should be, but it shows that such views are possible. I've given a link below:
Wikipedia-Liberal Islam

I would bet good money there is a fatwa out on that group.

ruveyn

And I seriously doubt that Republicans are referring to a liberal Muslim Group as a problem.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/wat ... your-pape/

This is hilarious, how Dems try to turn things into a PC or a rant about the KKK, look the KKK is nuts but they haven't flown aircraft into buildings full of people recently.