what to do about Israel?

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08 Apr 2011, 9:49 am

Ah, I see. So did the original owners own it properly, like I own my (very small) bit of land. Or was like........I don't know how to say it properly.........where some bigger force turns up and tells the natives we own this land and you are now our tenants kind of thing? If you know what I mean.

JeremyNJ1984
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08 Apr 2011, 9:55 am

MotherKnowsBest wrote:

Ottoman land laws were a lot different than modern American land laws. No, the tenant farmers who did live on the land did not own the land. The landlord was the one who owned the land and had the legal authority to sell the land. The people who owned the land, were Arabs themselves who actually lived in the major cities like Damascus, Aleppo, Amman, Beirut. They owned the land but didn't really live on it, if so rarely. The Ottoman Empire was made up of Arab territory before its breakup after World War I. They always had very mixed relations with Arabs and treated them badly themselves, which is a whole 'nother issue. But from Israels foundation it did not arrive on the shores of the mediterraean one day and demand all the land...it was a gradual process that took over 70 years prior to Israels foundation as a state to become that state that was born in 1948. Through successive Aliyah ( immigration) movements in Israeli history.

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08 Apr 2011, 10:03 am

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:

MotherKnowsBest wrote:

I find the whole Israel/Palestinian thing very confusing. Someone up thread, and I've heard this before from other sources, said that the Jews bought up land and then occupied this land. I don't mean to be stupid, I'm genuinely trying to understand. Is this right? They occupied land that they had bought? In other words, they were living on their own land?

If so, what claim does anyone else have to that land? I bought land in a foreign country and now occupy it. It's my land. The people who were in this area before me have no right what so ever to my bit. I don't understand.

As someone who has spent some time in Israel and have studied the history of the region, I will explain it to you. Prior to the State of Israels existense, Jews had to buy the land through the Jewish National Fund office in Jaffe. They bought the land at the exoribant prices from Landlords...the only issue was the tenant farmers who cultivated the land for the landlord had no say under Ottoman and later British law in the matter. The real blame if they want to cry about it 60 + years later belongs on the Arabs themselves who sold out their fellow arabs through land deals. The reality was that Jews bought the land legally and didn't just arrive and kick everyone out. Thats a myth.

Now, when the Partition plan was rejected by the Arabs in 1948, their was a war..which nullified the borders of the Partition plan. Israel won the war, and as such it won the spoils of war.

Many Arabs either fled, some were kicked out, As many Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews were ultimately thrown out of Arab countries...That is a part of the story rarely mentioned. It was a population transfer of sorts. Like what happened between Greece/Turkey, India/Pakistan, and Germany/Eastern Europe, after the war.

the bolded part is the answer to the question what lands are occupied.
Israel has a valid claim to Israel itself.
the spoils are the bits people are calling stolen or occupied.
the west bank, gaza, golan heights were not purchased.

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JeremyNJ1984
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08 Apr 2011, 10:14 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:

MotherKnowsBest wrote:

Actually the question over occupied lands was shifted further after the 1967 war, not the 1948 boundaries. As for " Stolen"...thats a politically charged term to make it seem like the other side did not do anything wrong. The West bank at the time of the 1967 war was under control of Jordan and they had decided to join Egypt and Syria in initating the beginnings of the '67 war, and therefore their innoncence was lost. When you initiate a war you can't cry about " stolen" land if you lose that war.

skafather84
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08 Apr 2011, 10:16 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Like I said a country built by blood and force do Different than any other.

the golden time of that our young friend is pining for was previous to the fall of the ottoman empire.
the conflict between jews and muslims is old but not hundreds of years old and it relates to Palestinian.

on this every one can agree. <although some won't>

Isn't the whole point of "From Time Immemorial" to make it seem like a much longer conflict than it actually was?

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08 Apr 2011, 10:57 am

The history of Israel is so long and complex that it's hard for anyone with merely a passing interest to understand it.
Me, for example... :lol:
Plus, it's a mecca (haha) for both Christians and Jews (I think there is some religious significance for Muslims, too?). Dealing with fervently-religious people of any faith is a pain in the arse.

I think the U.S. should wash its hands of the whole affair, Pilate-style. We've got more than enough problems here at home.

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08 Apr 2011, 11:06 am

Democracy: It Is (the) Real thing topic

With many African nations now realizing democracy is a realistic option, ideally the nation of Israel can be one of many democracies in the Middle East, and peace negotiations can be actualized.

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08 Apr 2011, 11:14 am

MotherKnowsBest wrote:

The Palestinian Muslims have a religious claim to the land, same as the Jews. The trouble is that they both can't be right! The Palestinians are not interested in the least with coexisting with the Jews. They favor wiping Israel off the map. As long as there are those in the Near and Middle East with that viewpoint, there cannot be peaceful coexistence with an Israeli nation. Even if there COULD be, the Palestinians don't want it. There will be no satisfaction until they all convert to Islam or at the very least are brought into submission to the followers of Mohammed.

So even though the land was purchased and Israel has the rightful claim to it, you won't get the Palestinians to admit to it or recognize it. The end of the world will come before you have peace in that part of the world--or if sooner, the end of the world will quickly follow.

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08 Apr 2011, 11:22 am

So, maybe the Jews should just leave?

MotherKnowsBest
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08 Apr 2011, 11:24 am

Thanks everyone, that's really helpful.

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08 Apr 2011, 11:26 am

pandabear wrote:

So, maybe the Jews should just leave?

Or maybe they should both leave and let the Christians...

Wait...

Strike that...

Or maybe they should both leave and let the Americans have it. :lol:

I'm just sayin!

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08 Apr 2011, 11:34 am

Maybe we should give everyone notice to clear out, and then bomb the whole area into oblivion so there's nothing left to fight over. Maybe use a nuke, so the radiation will keep anyone from moving back afterwards.

I'm not serious, of course.
Not completely.... :lol:

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08 Apr 2011, 11:43 am

YippySkippy wrote:

Well, let's think about it...

Nuke the Holy Land...

It's only the Jews who genuinely have any kind of legitimate claim to Canaan. God can remove them if He feels they're being bad and He can give it to anyone else if He wants them to have it.

However, no group has faced off with the Israelites or Jews and not come up against the wrath of God. I'm not saying we COULDN'T make the land uninhabitable and it be the will of the Lord to do so. But I'd rather not be the object of God's wrath, even if He is using me for that purpose. If someone SHOULD vaporize Israel, OK, I'll bite. But I'll just say that I'm not going to be volunteering for the job!! ! Let the Iranians do it and turn God's wrath towards them instead.

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08 Apr 2011, 11:49 am

pandabear wrote:

So, maybe the Jews should just leave?

How about the Palestinians just grow up, make peace with the Israelis and they would find their situation would improve a lot.

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08 Apr 2011, 11:53 am

Inuyasha wrote:

pandabear wrote:

So, maybe the Jews should just leave?

How about the Palestinians just grow up, make peace with the Israelis and they would find their situation would improve a lot.

Palestinians have tried that, it didn't work.

"Kinda Funny" you say "Grow up" what would you think if the UN suddenly determined that 50% of the US belongs to vikings and thus they should live there and all the American homes in there are replaced with Norwegian homes. And it does not stop there but the Norwegian keep expanding over the years? Would you ask the Americans to "Grow up" and just stop worrying about it?

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08 Apr 2011, 12:32 pm

Doesn't Norway have an excellent health care system?
I don't mind becoming Norwegian, though I'd rather not have to learn a new language.
Or eat strange fermented fish dishes.

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