Finland and the True Finns

Page 2 of 3 [ 38 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Master_Pedant
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,903

18 Apr 2011, 1:14 pm

jamieboy wrote:

Tequila wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

You do know that rejecting EU control over Finnish monetary policy will probably enable Finland to enact a whole bunch of leftwing nationalist programmes, right?

Yes; but it will be their choice; their destiny.

I doubt this government will be Leftist. Not if it has the Finnish equivalent of the UK independence party in it.

Not this government, but it does open the door for future governments that want to engage in 1970s style leftwing nationalism. There are, after all, Eurosceptics on the far left fringe as well.

_________________
http://www.voterocky.org/

jamieboy
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2010
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,619

18 Apr 2011, 1:15 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:

As a matter of fact, I recall a few years ago talk about an EU referrendum in France, with many Communists opposing the EU for that very reason.

This is correct. The French and swedish Left both voted down the EU constitution in referenda. The Eu then went on the implement more or less the same thing under a different name.

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

18 Apr 2011, 1:15 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:

There are, after all, Eurosceptics on the far left fringe as well.

True; a lot of eurosceptics in Europe are actually left-wing. The Socialist Party in Denmark is one of them, plus the former June Movement was centre-left.

Oodain
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,

18 Apr 2011, 1:21 pm

Tequila wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

There are, after all, Eurosceptics on the far left fringe as well.

True; a lot of eurosceptics in Europe are actually left-wing. The Socialist Party in Denmark is one of them, plus the former June Movement was centre-left.

also our government consist of an alliance across the center, the lines really are blurred, almost to the point where they lose meaning.

_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//

the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.

Vigilans
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181
Location: Montreal

18 Apr 2011, 1:23 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:

Tequila wrote:

jamieboy wrote:

Anyone would think that they got in. Not finished third.

It's a pretty large settlement for any hitherto-minor protest party. One step at a time.

I'm sure they'll end up just like Quebec's ADQ!

_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do

jamieboy
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2010
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,619

18 Apr 2011, 1:31 pm

Tequila wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

There are, after all, Eurosceptics on the far left fringe as well.

True; a lot of eurosceptics in Europe are actually left-wing. The Socialist Party in Denmark is one of them, plus the former June Movement was centre-left.

Labour in the 70's and before was opposed to the EU whereas the Tories were the europhiles. Now both Labour and the Tories are more or less pro EU. Personally i favor heavily reforming the EU to make it more accountable rather than withdrawal.

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

18 Apr 2011, 1:34 pm

jamieboy wrote:

The Eu then went on the implement more or less the same thing under a different name.

When the Irish voted 'no' to the Lisbon Treaty, they simply made them vote again. The EU has a record for the contempt of democracy.

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

18 Apr 2011, 1:36 pm

jamieboy wrote:

Labour in the 70's and before was opposed to the EU.

So were the Maltese Labour Party.

jamieboy
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2010
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,619

18 Apr 2011, 1:37 pm

Tequila wrote:

jamieboy wrote:

The Eu then went on the implement more or less the same thing under a different name.

When the Irish voted 'no' to the Lisbon Treaty, they simply made them vote again. The EU has a record for the contempt of democracy.

I'd do away with the commission and give the European Parliament all its powers. Then it would be accountable.

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

18 Apr 2011, 1:39 pm

I don't think the people who run the EU want it to be democratic, though. That's the whole point. So I favour withdrawal.

jamieboy
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2010
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,619

18 Apr 2011, 1:48 pm

Tequila wrote:

I don't think the people who run the EU want it to be democratic, though. That's the whole point. So I favour withdrawal.

Actually historically its the British government who have been the main people arguing against democracy within the EU. The French and Germans wanted a democratic united states of europe. I'd be happy with that also.

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

18 Apr 2011, 1:51 pm

It won't happen now, because the people who matter (the French, the Germans and other European countries) are voting for eurosceptic parties in large numbers. They're asking for a return to a Europe of nations.

I don't see United States of Europe parties being especially popular in the current climate, do you? At least if there were to be such a grouping set up, the electorate could be honest and treat it with the contempt it deserves by not voting for a party with such a platform.

jamieboy
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2010
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,619

18 Apr 2011, 1:59 pm

I think the main reason for the growth of the hard right is an increase in scapegoating of immigrants as a malicious reaction to the credit crunch. Once the Economy takes off again that will all die down. Anyhow i'm not bothered about what anyone else is doing. I'm a Socialist and internationalist who's in favour of a democratic Europe and i hope to bring one about in some distant mythical political climate. It's a bit like waiting for UKIP to gain power in westminster. You wait and wait and it never happens but you support it anyway because that's what you believe in.

chinatown
Toucan
Toucan

Joined: 14 Jul 2006
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 251

18 Apr 2011, 2:10 pm

I'm sad it has come to this. I'm not surprised, nor worried, really. To everything there is a season.

At some point, people living in welfare states become so accustomed to being provided for they start thinking the government should do everything for them. When it doesn't (it couldn't possibly), they need to blame someone, and right now the easiest victims just happen to be immigrants and third-world citizens.

I don't know what comes next. If Finland becomes another North Korea and I make it out in time, I wouldn't mind patrolling the border with a sniper rifle to make sure none of those dimwits (not talking about you, Tequila ) who made it what it is make it out alive.

edit: ^ I agree that it's partly the recession, but I think it's also a general lack of dignity. People have just gotten too lazy to think ahead.

_________________
Enchantment!

Last edited by chinatown on 18 Apr 2011, 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jamieboy
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2010
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,619

18 Apr 2011, 2:15 pm

chinatown wrote:

) who made it what it is make it out alive.

The real criminals are the capitalists who created the housing bubble. The people are having to bare the heavy load of paying back a deficit that they didn't create.

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

18 Apr 2011, 2:23 pm

chinatown wrote:

When it doesn't (it couldn't possibly), they need to blame someone, and right now the easiest victims just happen to be immigrants and third-world citizens.

I don't know where you get that from. The likes of the True Finns and UKIP are nothing like the BNP; they are not scapegoating immigrants. That accusation could be more sensibly applied to 'euronationalist' parties like the BNP, Front National, NPD, et al. They just want to have the ability to control their own borders like every other non-EU country and be able to turn away illegal immigrants. Nothing wrong with that.

Page 2 of 3 [ 38 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next

Jump to:

Finland and the True Finns Post Reply New Topic

Finland and the True Finns