Palestinian Preconditions for Peace

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I don't think they're planning proliferation at all, they have what they need, their closest allies have what they need and the whole lot of them want it to stay that way. Hence the persistent smear on Iran and the hostility to them having any kind of nuclear program be it peaceful or military and the perpetual destabilisation of the region.

peace j

There is a lot of suspicion that Israel was instrumental in providing South Africa with the necessary resources to build their small arsenal of nuclear weapons. As a country that doesn't quite admit to even having them, I find this despicable, especially considering they were arming the Apartheid-era regime

Agreed, however they have no new pariah state to buddy up to and it was done to secure the SA uranium they needed.

I think though, that their willingness to engage in clandestine trading with this dangerous technology, and deal with a pariah state, say a lot about the country. The Ends Justify The Means
But now that they have their nuclear deterrent, I have little trust that they aren't willing to trade with other nations with dangerous materials to maintain their impossible strategic position. Nuclear weapons aren't the only WMDs Israel is suspected of having

Quite true, perhaps inspite of what I know I am just too damn optimistic

Provide those Palestinians with a TOS as to their existence in those two territories, and if they can't behave themselves, lock'em up or make things even worse then they currently are.

There's no reason that Israeli's can have non-jew arab's and/or muslims but palestinians can't tolerate jews in their territories. The two need to live together, not in separate states or territories, for the sake of a peaceful and tolerant future. That's why I'm against those walls. I understand that from Israel's perspective, the future amongst enemies presents a climate of uncertain-ness... and who knows... tomorrow every Arab country may invade again. But the best way forward is to fully immerse those muslims and arabs in the Gaza and Westbank into Israel's secular and tolerant society.

If you are for Gay Rights
If you are for Women's Rights
If you are for Economic Prosperity + Powerful Unions who protect workers rights
If you are for a tolerant Judicial system that makes its ruling through the lens of Race, Class, & Gender
If you are for a free media that is as critical of it's government as the NYT or The Nation is of USA


Then you won't tolerate a ass-backwards society that wants to segregate itself from progress all in the name of Allah and cultural preservation. A united Israel with no walls and no Palestinian-only territories is the way to go. Time to secularize this part of the world for a healthier balance and it begins with breaking down those walls and fully forcing all those Palestinians to embrace the Progress and Change and Tolerance that comes with a free society.

Oh the joyless noise of the prateing of fools....

peace j

The Israelis will do whatever they have to do to keep from being wiped out. And if that does not work out, if Israel goes down, so does the world. Think of Blind Sampson in the Temple of Dagan. He brought the roof down not only on himself, but on everyone in the building. Something to think about.

ruveyn

Hasn't Israel already abandoned some of it's settlements in land it gave back to the Palestinians? I remember reading about this in the news a few years back. How much of a detriment would it be for Israel to give back all of the land it gained in the 1967 war?

The wall Israel was working on had a much bigger impact on the peace process than anything else did, sure it received more criticism, but suicide attacks dropped before the project could even be finished, it was as if the thought of being cut off from the Israelis was worse than anything else.

I'm not anti-Israel, I'm against nuclear proliferation. You've said it yourself that that is an absolute s**t place to fight over anyways. So they're willing to risk the rest of the world by trading weapons of mass destruction, so that they can maintain their impossible strategic position in a sh***y little patch of the even shittier Middle East. I don't see why the rest of the world goes down if Israel goes down. Countries appear, disappear, the world moves on, same s**t different day

I trust Israel with Nuclear weapons a lot more than I do North Korea or Iran.



Kaliphate (sp?)

Then you have the radical fanatics continuing their murderous rampage on the rest of the world. These fanatics will only be content if we are all dead, converted to Islam, and/or slaves.

South Africa was a stable country at the time that was safe to trade with even if their social policies were politically incorrect. They exchanged a lot of military hardware and it helped both of them maintain their security. SA having nukes wasn't just trying to look bad-ass- they were pretty much surrounded by volatile places where the Soviets were meddling and Islamic militants weren't too far off. SA had to consider if the Warsaw Pact countries gave them enough hardware to give the warlords and Islamic militants a standing army in the region, that SA would be in trouble. The same problem existed in the middle east but was much more urgent, so SA dealing with Israel (and vice versa) was essential to both their needs.

Anyone who was born after the end of the cold war or who is not old enough to remember anything about it needs to keep their opinions about this to themselves, because your self-righteous hindsight based on modern views has no bearing on what was going on then!

So do I. But Israel has engaged in the same sort of weapon swapping behavior as them, with a pariah state. I think it would increase Israel's prestige and credibility if they would sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, like most countries in possession of nuclear weapons. This just guarantees they are not going to spread the technology around. If it becomes too widely available, eventually nuclear terrorism will become a reality. Additionally if Israel became a participant of the NNPT they could help enforce it and help prevent proliferation of nuclear weapons amongst their enemies. So its really win-win, except that they don't want to give up the advantage that having nuclear weapon technology for sale gives them if they really need something from another country. Its despicable



These extremists aren't the majority, but as is often the case 'the loudest voice is the one most heard'. Israel's demise as a nation would not automatically lead to the Caliphate. There is too much division within Islam, there are many sects within the religion. Even national and ethnic rivalries come into play, which is why there hasn't really be a united Islam in 1,000 years. I very much doubt there will ever be a unified Caliphate, ever.

Last edited by Vigilans on 21 May 2011, 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

I doubt Israel will go down, at least within the next 50 years. The US unconditionally backs them and, while European nations are a lot more eager to criticize Israeli human rights abuses and call more strongly for a two-state solution, it's apparent that the great West would aid Israel in such a situation. The tin-pot oligarchies and autocracies of the region are going through far too much internal turmoil to mount a successful attack.

Last edited by Master_Pedant on 21 May 2011, 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

Unlike most Muslim nations, Israel is extremely limited as to who they can safely trade technology with, and they might not have anyone left.

They were an international pariah. The Soviets were meddling, but SA themselves were meddlers. Are you unaware of the Angolan Civil War, or the Namibian War of Independence? They were not really a very stable country



I'm really not even going to bother explaining to you how stupid of a fallacious comment that is.