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simon_says
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09 Jun 2011, 11:26 pm

Creationism isn't the general belief that there was a creator / creation event. It's short hand for Scientific Creationism. Which is a very specific belief system that comes in 3-4, or more, flavors.

Intelligent Design is a variation of Creationism, and is often promoted by old fashioned Creationists. But ID is not scientific either as they have no scientific theory and no way to falsify it.



blunnet
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09 Jun 2011, 11:30 pm

The issue with the OP doesn't look to be about wether a creator exists or not, which TeaEarlGreyHot brought that up, but rather, the topic is Creationists rejection of evolution, physical cosmology and geology, which pretty much means rejecting science.

Wether a god exists or not is a separate issue.



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09 Jun 2011, 11:57 pm

The OP seems to be talking about a specific sort of creationism, so I think it is worth distinguishing it from some other forms of creationism.

The most basic forms of creationism, the burn the textbooks types, are common pretty much world-wide. There are Islamic preachers in Europe making these sorts of cases and if you go to Africa, this type of thinking can be found also.

I have an issue with this sort of thinking because it does reject science.

Confusing this sort of creationism with the rejection of absolute naturalism is not particularly useful. There is, in many scientific circles, a presumption of methodological naturalism. I personally see this as being an untestable position also, essentially the modern incarnation of logical positivism. So, while I presently do not accept the science being put forward by ID proponents (I see most of it as philosophy of science), I do think they make a fair point when they challenge the presumption of methodological naturalism; which I view as equally bad thinking. If a conclusion is falsifiable and in large part empirical, I personally don't have much of a problem with it being science.


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Benbob
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10 Jun 2011, 1:40 am

@teaearlgrey
uhm, the burden of proof is on the one making a positive assertion, even a mediocre high-school student should know that. You seem pretty "butt-hurt" but, where's your evidence for a creator?

I'd be like me touting unicorns as existent then yelling at people saying "you can't prove there are no unicorns!!".

I find you childish and scientifically illiterate.


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Benbob
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10 Jun 2011, 1:48 am

Oh and as for which type of creationism I don't care whether it's christian, muslim, (although they are the most common) or any other magical explanation. Using magic over science is the trademark of a simple mind.

There being no evidence for a creator I would count as relevant in the case against creationism in any form. If there was evidence that magical powers existed, then the creationists arguments would have at least some backing, even if it would result in Bill Hick's 'prankster god' scenario.


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TeaEarlGreyHot
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10 Jun 2011, 2:01 am

Benbob wrote:
@teaearlgrey
uhm, the burden of proof is on the one making a positive assertion, even a mediocre high-school student should know that. You seem pretty "butt-hurt" but, where's your evidence for a creator?

I'd be like me touting unicorns as existent then yelling at people saying "you can't prove there are no unicorns!!".

I find you childish and scientifically illiterate.


You can find me whatever you would like. Personally, I find it rather rash to make such an assessment over one thread. Especially since I have yet to say anything about my beliefs or ideas.

And no, since you are the one asserting a belief in Creationism is childish and baseless, you are the one with the burden of proof. So far I haven't seen any.


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Benbob
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10 Jun 2011, 2:03 am

Troll say troll things.


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Benbob
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10 Jun 2011, 2:07 am

Oh yea and wait for it....

Here it comes....

Quote:
the burden of proof is on the one making a positive assertion


Troll defend magic. Troll must prove magic.



Last edited by Benbob on 10 Jun 2011, 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

TeaEarlGreyHot
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10 Jun 2011, 2:07 am

Benbob wrote:
Troll say troll things.


Impressive proof. I'm swayed.

... wait. I already study science in all it's forms.


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TeaEarlGreyHot
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10 Jun 2011, 2:08 am

Benbob wrote:
Oh yea and wait for it....

Here it comes....

Quote:
the burden of proof is on the one making a positive assertion


Troll defend magic. Troll must prove magic.


You do realize it's against TOS to call someone a troll for disagreeing with you, right?


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Benbob
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10 Jun 2011, 2:10 am

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Benbob wrote:
Troll say troll things.


Impressive proof. I'm swayed.

... wait. I already study science in all it's forms.



Troll has impressive university degrees? Me not think is case.

Defend the magic, prove the magic, where's proof of magic?



TeaEarlGreyHot
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10 Jun 2011, 2:12 am

I'm bored again. Bye!


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Benbob
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10 Jun 2011, 2:14 am

Quote:
I'm bored again. Bye!


Ah so asking for you to show some qualifications regarding your "study" of science in all its forms is boring? Actually it seems anyone who puts you on the ropes gets called a bore before you retreat. Do I need to reiterate why I find your behavior childish and typical of most creationists and pseudo-scientists? No.

"They want evidence!? RUN!! !!"

Peace.



MarketAndChurch
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10 Jun 2011, 3:13 am

I prefer intelligent design. Everything was designed.

The bible is not here to teach science and there is no internal evidence that God made the world in 7 days(in the way that we know the term "day") anyways.

You aren't anti-physics or anti-chemistry if you think darwinists are full of it. You're just anti 100% darwin-based biology. So the notion that creationists or ID folks are anti-science is dishonest. Darwinian explanations are not the litmus test for one's love or lack of love for science, and the sciences are largely preserved with half or none of Darwin's views preserved.


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10 Jun 2011, 3:38 am

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
blunnet wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
There is no evidence there is no creator, either. The fact is, we have no idea how the universe was created. Some choose to rely solely on scientific findings, but many others find that lacking in depth and meaning.

By Occam's Razor one can infer that most likely there is no creator, given the lack of evidence and that mystical beliefs have been proved to be crap, the typical idea and concepts of a creator are questionable.


Um... no. No evidence of a creator =/= evidence of no creator. Furthermore, just because lots of religious/spiritual beliefs have been disproven doesn't mean all have.


lack of proof either way does not necessarily equate to a 50/50 probability. As has already been pointed the scientific discovery has dis-proven so many superstitious beliefs, our knowledge of the universe is increasing to the point where as Stephen Hawkin recently pointed out there is no longer a need for god to explain the creation of the universe. The existence of a supernatural uber being is looking less and less probable


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simon_says
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10 Jun 2011, 3:38 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
I prefer intelligent design. Everything was designed.

The bible is not here to teach science and there is no internal evidence that God made the world in 7 days(in the way that we know the term "day") anyways.

You aren't anti-physics or anti-chemistry if you think darwinists are full of it. You're just anti 100% darwin-based biology. So the notion that creationists or ID folks are anti-science is dishonest. Darwinian explanations are not the litmus test for one's love or lack of love for science, and the sciences are largely preserved with half or none of Darwin's views preserved.


No it's not dishonest. Creationists throw out a large portion of the sciences (including physics and astronomy) and are thus anti-science. ID comes in many forms, some more ignorant and Creationist-like than others, but they all share a lack of a scientific theory. So it's not science.



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