Same sex marriage

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If the human being does not have a fixed sexual orientation then the western bias of male-female love is exactly that: biased. Be it as subtle as telling your daughter if her barbie doll is going to marry ken, scott, or kevin, OR ken, scott, or stacey and introducing them only to prince and princess stories which idolize the rigid framework of male-female love or as overtly as laws that limit the acceptable definition of marriage to male-female love.

The way in which people act out gender roles and sexuality is very much induced by society. For the most part, the way people behave sexually is largely determined by society and not by nature. Who we mate with is obvious but who we make love to is largely conditioned by our experience. The way we sit and walk and talk are all performances of gender that are culturally based.

If the average person has been conditioned to this bias, then a culture that fosters more loose definitions of acceptable living arrangements will mean an average person who is more considerate to with vastly more options available to them.

off-topic: well then perhaps male aspies who have staring problems or inability to look someone in the eye should not get preferential treatment or anything different then a NT who also has the same issues, and punished accordingly if they make other people, particularly women, uncomfortable.

on-topic: I understand the spirit of the statement and the emoted rant is fine, but the heartless mind still deserves some level of civility.

I would need to address that more specifically, actually.

It is not an "emoted rant." I do not owe any civility to a homophobe. I see them as low-bred trash, and the world has no use for them.

I blame poor racial hygiene.

yes but anyone who opposes gay marriage(right or wrong) is labeled a homophobe, which is an emoted way of responding since it is justified hate that animates the response. Your hate and incivility might be justified, but at least acknowledge the emotion-basis for the response.

I have to agree with that.

The emotion is my disgust for such low-bred white trash, and most people who are against gay marriage are also homophobes on some level.

I can see how there can be exceptions, but the same people who keep shooting down gay marriage are also shooting down bills aimed at trying to control bullying or to add gay people to already existing laws protecting racial minorities and the disabled.

So the simple fact of the matter is that I see opposition to same-sex marriage as an assault on my rights that deserves to be addressed with whatever force is necessary to suppress it. It is not up for discussion. It is not something I intend to compromise on. I will crush and destroy any conversation on it in which someone is suggesting that I should live under one law while someone else lives under another, period, and I have proven this.

It's not something that I am going to be nice about. If you think you've seen me being mean, you haven't seen me after I've been provoked on this subject.

The joy of tailormade definitions.

Should we consider there is only one reason a society is involved in marriage, and two very different reasons a government gets involved in marriage. Two of which three reasons are relevant to the same sex marriage deal. Neither of which has anything to do with the reasons andvanced pro and con.

Now who can tell us what the two critical reasons are?

Class?

1. The government imagines itself to have a monopoly on coitus, which it taxes once through the issuance of a marriage license.

2. Divorces make money for lawyers.

I'm not entirely sure I get what you're saying here. It sounds like "Being gay is a choice, therefore same sex marriage doesn't need to be legal".

Sexual orientation and sexuality are fluid, but that's not quite the same thing as saying it's a choice.

Not explicitly, as it looks to me more like an attempt to persuade people than actually argue for that position, but I see that it creates a situation which needs to be addressed or clarified. As I understand it, it looks like this: "If being gay is not a choice (fixed), same sex marriages should be legal", but yeah, that leads to asking the question: "What IF it is a choice?"

Last edited by blunnet on 20 Jun 2011, 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

And Hurrican Katrina

if men and women aren't "fixed" (not including people were born rigidly homosexual), then allowing homosexual marriage will increase homosexuality. Saying that most people are or not is up for debate, but if one takes the position that it is not fixed, and that it is culturally biased (in some cases, cultures who strictly embrace familism are more often opposed to homosexuality)

gay advocates fully acknowledge this. That is the reason they don't settle for civil unions. Like I told Mox earlier,

I uphold male-female love as the idyllic societal bias that we culturally shape people towards.

That you don't is fine. As I noted earlier:



They were always quick to note violence in the media, so to raise less violent boys, we exclude toy guns and swords from the things available for them to play with - just as we - to combat sexism - give our daughters gender neutral toys like trucks to fight sexist bias in our daughters upbringing. The same worldview is at play here. To create the less homophobic world, gays and their large heterosexual supporters will achieve that with gay marriage, which I too would support if I didn't believe that - for the overwhelming majority of us - the human being does not have a fixed orientation.

you mean:

"If being gay is not a choice (fixed), same sex marriages should be legal", but yeah, that leads to asking the question: "What IF it is a choice?"

I heard a lot of stuff about gay marriage on the "anti-bullying" for gay people day. Now people are talking about gay marriage, and I'd like to state my opinion on that:

On Gaybullying:

*People shouldn’t get bullied. I can understand that, bullying is ALWAYS wrong. I heard about a Father beating his gay son with a bible, I am against that. However, having a differing opinion is NOT wrong, it is fine as long as you aren't downright mean. I know that I shouldn’t bully homosexuals, I would never try to do that, but I will not weaken my opinion, and will always stand by my church and anyone else who knows that the definition of a family is a marriage between a man and a woman. It is not called bible-thumping, it is called tried, tested, and true.
Also:
*I totally understand that bullying is wrong. It is never right to induce pain on any other human for any purpose aside from self-defense. I would never try to. While there is a specific empathy that is required in humans for this nation to survive, I also want to point something else out. There is a difference between discriminating and rewarding....see gay marriage.

On The LDS reactions to gay people:

*Our church as a whole does not try to bully Homosexuals. Individual agents may, and I am sorry that they give the impression that we hate homosexuals. Let me be clear: we love the people, they are our brother's and sister's.......but, we can disapprove of their actions. No matter what anybody says being gay is a choice, and acting on it is a choice too. Oh, and nobody gets discommunicated from our church for "being gay", or thinking gay thoughts.......they are when they start acting on those thoughts. It is the same sin as adultery, and it is wrong to act on it. It is the choice of the church leaders to which if a member stays a member IF thy committed or engaged in any sexual relations, including gay ones.

On being gay:

*Oh, and the gay thing, just like any other type of thought can be overcome. The studies are biased. Have you ever had thoughts? Anyone who has OCD, like for instance me, knows that ANY type of thought can get stuck in your head and be obsessed over....but any thought can be overcome with better thoughts.
Also

*We are born to reproduce with others of the opposite sex, yet some get the thought to be gay (sometimes it is the human nature to think about things like that, sometimes it is the media or relations or politics....outside influences that make that happen). So anyone can get over it, they just have to get rid of those thoughts. *I believe that I am straight also I think straight therefore I am straight, Anyone who wants to be straight can think straight, just like anyone who thinks gay can become gay. *Thoughts become words, words become actions, actions become character, charter becomes destiny. (Oh and tv and bad influences, and the devil gives people those thoughts).

*Not discriminated, but discouraged. They are harming our future generations. The children won't be raised in a home with a mother and a father (as stated previously), and there will be less people made as more people fall into sin.

* Secondly...YES THEY CAN CHOOSE. When they first started out, they talked about skin color and how they can;t choose that. And I quote "I didn't wake-up one day wanted to be discriminated." Nobody wants to be made-fun of. However, that doesn't mean that it isn't a choice. Just as there are scientists who say being homosexual is a genetic thing, there is also a case to make for environmental and just plain old thoughts. Honestly, more people than would like to admit have had a gay thought or two in their lifetime. It is part of natural human curiosity. The difference between a normal person and a gay person is that they choose to focus on those thoughts. There is a quote that I heard when I was in elementary school "thoughts become words, words become actions, actions become character, character becomes destiny"....and guess what? It wasn't from the bible. It was from common sense. When people obsess over ANY thought, it will become a part of them. Think about food too much, you'll eat too much and become fat, think about suicide too much, you'll be depressed, you'll kill yourself, think about being gay too much, you'll declare yourself gay and have sex with the same sex. It is all a series of actions and consequences. While I do sympathize with the outcasts and being left out of things, not having a social life, not fitting in. I do not sympathize with the gay communities thoughts. It is a choice they can make to think about it. I have OCD, that means I sometimes obsess over thoughts more than the average person, I have thought about a wide variety of my decisions. I remember when the lady on the show asked "Was there a point in your life when you woke up and decided to be straight?" Why in fact, there was, just like there was a point where I decided to be vegetarian, to be a runner, to be mormon, to be ... There are so many choices and so many thoughts that we have, and this is just a fixation on a specific type of thoughts: gay ones. So while I think that it would be near impossible to never ever have one, I still KNOW that you can decide what you think....even if you have a mental problem

On gay marriage:

* Giving homosexuals the right to marriage is a reward. They get tax breaks, and rights just like a true couple. That is not right. Again, discouraged, not discriminated. That is my first point.

Also:

*Marriage is about procreation, social fulfillment, and romance. With a man and a woman, they fulfill all 3 roles, with parents that can't have kids, they fill 2 (and are allowed to have relations because they are married) roles, and can adopt to fill the third one. Gay people cannot procreate for a reason. The man and woman who can't have kids, they have a medical reason, the gay people are just gay. They can choose if they are gay. It is a choice to act. Every action you take and make is a choice

*There is some tie between religion and government. However, should we get rid of it all? Why should we allow there to be more gay people? Because the purpose for sex is for procreation. I said it. The world is SO wicked right now. Sex should not be tossed around, but it is....everywhere we look. So, if we are going to go into the gay debate, lets go to the core of what it really is about. It is about sex. Everyone has differing opinions on this, but there are laws there to enforce it. Seeing as there are laws, can you understand that it is a powerful thing? The power to create another human being....would you agree that it is one of the strongest weapons we have, to create life...living, breathing, thinking, loving, life? If you don't, your eyes are blinded. Sex has misguided the world, but has also created it. If we continue to loosen an weaken the laws regarding it, it is basically saying that we should get rid of it. Committing sexual acts with gay people is in the same category with pedophiles. It is misusing the power to create life. Even if you think that there is no god, even if you think that religion has it's wrong, can you see that we have the power to create a life within a human. Humans are one of the most fascinating and complicated and amazing creatures...we have the sole power to make it. Science has tried to replicate it, but honestly, nothing can ever mimic the true creation of a person. Furthermore, it is made enjoyable to us, because of the way our bodies were created. However, it is messed up now. Many people don't understand these fundamental truths....and that is why religion is trying to do (I say truing because some churches are corrupt, but a majority of them have a good intent). It is all about good intent too. If you are having sex with one of the same sex, you can't create a child. You are just gratifying each other, selfish. Especially when you are physically able to be with one of the opposite sex and create a child and make a loving family that will continue that tradition. I know that there are people that don't have the chance (socially, financially, or medically....being that they can;t have a baby). but it is all about the intent. The intent of the gay people is just to gratify each other with their sex. I mean, they can adopt a child, but if we encourage that, then there will be less couples having babies. I see this as a problem. I mean, do you see that people= power. Obviously there can be overcrowding, but I assure you that is not the case. Also, there are mathematicians and scientists, geologists, and so many other intelligent people who have worked together to find that there is way more than enough livable places on the earth. So it is not the case of living spaces. It is the case of being selfish. While it is not just gays, most people can see it most blatantly in gays and pedophiles, and etc. While in reality, it is anyone who has sex outside of holy matrimony to gratify their needs. That is why we don't want gay people to be able to have holy matrimony, it makes it unholy. It is a selfish act, and even if you do raise the children lovingly, you are teaching them to be predominately gay...that it is okay to think that way. I think that is wrong, and should be discouraged. Yes, hurting people will and will always be wrong, but discouragement IS the way to go. I know this in my heart to be true).

[quote="MarketAndChurch"][quote="blunnet"][quote="TeaEarlGreyHot"]I'm not entirely sure I get what you're saying here. It sounds like "Being gay is a choice, therefore same sex marriage doesn't need to be legal".[/quote]
Not explicitly, as it looks to me more like an attempt to persuade people than actually argue for that position, but I see that it creates a situation which needs to be addressed or clarified. As I understand it, it looks like this: "If being gay is not a choice (fixed), same sex marriages should be legal", but yeah, that leads to asking the question: "What IF is not a choice?"[/quote]

you mean:

"If being gay is not a choice (fixed), same sex marriages should be legal", but yeah, that leads to asking the question: "[b]What IF it is a choice?[/b]"[/quote]

If, for the sake of argument, that homosexuality is a "choice," gay marriage should still be made legal, because the participants in the homosexual union are consenting adults, and this is supposed to be the land of the free and the brave.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer