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ruveyn
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06 Sep 2011, 12:43 pm

pandabear wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
isn't the postal service still semi-privatized?


Yes. As I understand it, the Post Office doesn't get any appropriations from the government--they are self-funded. Congress, however, does set the price of stamps.

Anyone can deliver letters, but only the post office can put mail in your mail box. FEDEX and UPS have to drop them off at your door, or ring your doorbell and hand them to you.


Private companies cannot deliver sealed envelopes which are first class mail. That can deliver packages and the larger size envelopes but not the small or standard size envelopes used for first class mail.

It is also illegal to have a separate box for the private companies to place parcels in. Even though each household purchases its mailboxes, the interior is the property of the U.S. That is why outside mailboxes have little rings sticking up for the delivery of newspapers. Delivered newspapers are forbotten for the interior of mailboxes.

ruveyn



pandabear
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06 Sep 2011, 6:56 pm

ruveyn wrote:
pandabear wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
isn't the postal service still semi-privatized?


Yes. As I understand it, the Post Office doesn't get any appropriations from the government--they are self-funded. Congress, however, does set the price of stamps.

Anyone can deliver letters, but only the post office can put mail in your mail box. FEDEX and UPS have to drop them off at your door, or ring your doorbell and hand them to you.


Private companies cannot deliver sealed envelopes which are first class mail. That can deliver packages and the larger size envelopes but not the small or standard size envelopes used for first class mail.

It is also illegal to have a separate box for the private companies to place parcels in. Even though each household purchases its mailboxes, the interior is the property of the U.S. That is why outside mailboxes have little rings sticking up for the delivery of newspapers. Delivered newspapers are forbotten for the interior of mailboxes.

ruveyn


Is there any private company that would be up for competing against the post office?



Inuyasha
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06 Sep 2011, 6:59 pm

pandabear wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
pandabear wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
isn't the postal service still semi-privatized?


Yes. As I understand it, the Post Office doesn't get any appropriations from the government--they are self-funded. Congress, however, does set the price of stamps.

Anyone can deliver letters, but only the post office can put mail in your mail box. FEDEX and UPS have to drop them off at your door, or ring your doorbell and hand them to you.


Private companies cannot deliver sealed envelopes which are first class mail. That can deliver packages and the larger size envelopes but not the small or standard size envelopes used for first class mail.

It is also illegal to have a separate box for the private companies to place parcels in. Even though each household purchases its mailboxes, the interior is the property of the U.S. That is why outside mailboxes have little rings sticking up for the delivery of newspapers. Delivered newspapers are forbotten for the interior of mailboxes.

ruveyn


Is there any private company that would be up for competing against the post office?


Fed Ex and UPS are two that I can think of off the top of my head.



Tadzio
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06 Sep 2011, 7:00 pm

The private company "The Pony Express" was not illegal, though the last company horse died more than 100 years ago.



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07 Sep 2011, 4:00 am

I'm not sold completely. There's a place for the USPS. It's the only protected parcel service in the world. There's precedent for keeping it in service too I think. It still serves as a time stamp for intellectual property. I don't think any other carrier can claim that, and digital formats surely can't.



ruveyn
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07 Sep 2011, 5:24 am

cw10 wrote:
I'm not sold completely. There's a place for the USPS. It's the only protected parcel service in the world. There's precedent for keeping it in service too I think. It still serves as a time stamp for intellectual property. I don't think any other carrier can claim that, and digital formats surely can't.


And no one in the postal service is corrupt, right?

ruveyn



xenon13
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07 Sep 2011, 11:02 am

The post office should go back into banking. Most civilised countries have this. Canada doesn't of course. Britain still has it I think. The post office isn't supposed to make a profit. It's supposed to provide a service, it's supposed to reduce the cost of doing business.



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07 Sep 2011, 11:30 am

cw10 wrote:
It still serves as a time stamp for intellectual property. I don't think any other carrier can claim that, and digital formats surely can't.

The only time stamp for intellectual property is registration with the copyright office. The ability to mail your work to yourself doesn't really prove anything. For someone like me, it isn't cost-effective for me to do even that. I'm not even with ASCAP yet. I'm not worried about someone stealing my intellectual material because, frankly, I don't know how anyone would have access to it. Even if I performed my work for broadcast, I could still claim that the idea was mine first because I can point to a specific date for an on-air musical performance, which would be documented in at least one other place.

But mailing it to yourself? If you store your work electronically and someone can access your computer, all they have to do is print it up and mail it to themselves, and there you go. There is cause for doubt that postdate is a legit timestamp. It might help somewhat, but I think that's really just a myth.



ruveyn
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07 Sep 2011, 11:54 am

xenon13 wrote:
The post office should go back into banking. Most civilised countries have this. Canada doesn't of course. Britain still has it I think. The post office isn't supposed to make a profit. It's supposed to provide a service, it's supposed to reduce the cost of doing business.


What does delivering mail have to do with banking?

ruveyn



Inuyasha
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07 Sep 2011, 1:29 pm

AngelRho wrote:
cw10 wrote:
It still serves as a time stamp for intellectual property. I don't think any other carrier can claim that, and digital formats surely can't.

The only time stamp for intellectual property is registration with the copyright office. The ability to mail your work to yourself doesn't really prove anything. For someone like me, it isn't cost-effective for me to do even that. I'm not even with ASCAP yet. I'm not worried about someone stealing my intellectual material because, frankly, I don't know how anyone would have access to it. Even if I performed my work for broadcast, I could still claim that the idea was mine first because I can point to a specific date for an on-air musical performance, which would be documented in at least one other place.

But mailing it to yourself? If you store your work electronically and someone can access your computer, all they have to do is print it up and mail it to themselves, and there you go. There is cause for doubt that postdate is a legit timestamp. It might help somewhat, but I think that's really just a myth.


Actually, you can use the postal service as a copyright. Just when you receive the physical mail in the envelope, you are supposed to leave it sealed, and if you have to then prove someone is using your word, you take the sealed envelop to court where it is opened in the court room and becomes evidence.



AngelRho
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07 Sep 2011, 2:50 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
cw10 wrote:
It still serves as a time stamp for intellectual property. I don't think any other carrier can claim that, and digital formats surely can't.

The only time stamp for intellectual property is registration with the copyright office. The ability to mail your work to yourself doesn't really prove anything. For someone like me, it isn't cost-effective for me to do even that. I'm not even with ASCAP yet. I'm not worried about someone stealing my intellectual material because, frankly, I don't know how anyone would have access to it. Even if I performed my work for broadcast, I could still claim that the idea was mine first because I can point to a specific date for an on-air musical performance, which would be documented in at least one other place.

But mailing it to yourself? If you store your work electronically and someone can access your computer, all they have to do is print it up and mail it to themselves, and there you go. There is cause for doubt that postdate is a legit timestamp. It might help somewhat, but I think that's really just a myth.


Actually, you can use the postal service as a copyright. Just when you receive the physical mail in the envelope, you are supposed to leave it sealed, and if you have to then prove someone is using your word, you take the sealed envelop to court where it is opened in the court room and becomes evidence.

That's "poor-man's copyright." It doesn't work that way.

First of all, a work is copyrighted the instant it is transferred to some tangible form, like paper, storage media, etc. You don't HAVE to register your copyright, though it's always a good idea to do that, and you don't even really have to include the c-in-a-circle--all that does is simply warn other people viewing your work that it's under copyright and they don't have the right to take it. Going through the legal process of registration is just a way to say "I got it first" should legal issues ever come up.

Second, all you have to do is get a bunch of envelopes, put something in them, and mail them to yourself unsealed. You can take someone else's recent work, open it on your own computer, set back the computer clock to a date prior to the existing time stamp on the existing work, burn it to a CD, and then just seal the envelope. And you can do that as many times as you want with anything, whether it's yours or not.

I know a lot of people who do that, but it's really all just a myth. It's just too easy to fake. As far as I know, nobody has ever won a court case based on something they mailed to themselves. If I'm wrong, I'd genuinely be interested in knowing about a court case won by sealed envelope.



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07 Sep 2011, 2:54 pm

Back to the postal service issue:

I've heard of a trick where you can get free postage. What you do is you write a fake destination address and then write the real destination in the RETURN address. When the PO gets it, they just stamp it "return" for insufficient postage, and then it goes to the intended address.



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07 Sep 2011, 7:52 pm

ruveyn wrote:
cw10 wrote:
I'm not sold completely. There's a place for the USPS. It's the only protected parcel service in the world. There's precedent for keeping it in service too I think. It still serves as a time stamp for intellectual property. I don't think any other carrier can claim that, and digital formats surely can't.


And no one in the postal service is corrupt, right?

ruveyn


s**t son, there's corruption everywhere.



cw10
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07 Sep 2011, 7:55 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
cw10 wrote:
It still serves as a time stamp for intellectual property. I don't think any other carrier can claim that, and digital formats surely can't.

The only time stamp for intellectual property is registration with the copyright office. The ability to mail your work to yourself doesn't really prove anything. For someone like me, it isn't cost-effective for me to do even that. I'm not even with ASCAP yet. I'm not worried about someone stealing my intellectual material because, frankly, I don't know how anyone would have access to it. Even if I performed my work for broadcast, I could still claim that the idea was mine first because I can point to a specific date for an on-air musical performance, which would be documented in at least one other place.

But mailing it to yourself? If you store your work electronically and someone can access your computer, all they have to do is print it up and mail it to themselves, and there you go. There is cause for doubt that postdate is a legit timestamp. It might help somewhat, but I think that's really just a myth.


Actually, you can use the postal service as a copyright. Just when you receive the physical mail in the envelope, you are supposed to leave it sealed, and if you have to then prove someone is using your word, you take the sealed envelop to court where it is opened in the court room and becomes evidence.

That's "poor-man's copyright." It doesn't work that way.

First of all, a work is copyrighted the instant it is transferred to some tangible form, like paper, storage media, etc. You don't HAVE to register your copyright, though it's always a good idea to do that, and you don't even really have to include the c-in-a-circle--all that does is simply warn other people viewing your work that it's under copyright and they don't have the right to take it. Going through the legal process of registration is just a way to say "I got it first" should legal issues ever come up.

Second, all you have to do is get a bunch of envelopes, put something in them, and mail them to yourself unsealed. You can take someone else's recent work, open it on your own computer, set back the computer clock to a date prior to the existing time stamp on the existing work, burn it to a CD, and then just seal the envelope. And you can do that as many times as you want with anything, whether it's yours or not.

I know a lot of people who do that, but it's really all just a myth. It's just too easy to fake. As far as I know, nobody has ever won a court case based on something they mailed to themselves. If I'm wrong, I'd genuinely be interested in knowing about a court case won by sealed envelope.


Well I for one had to get a sealed copy of my GED to take to college, they won't accept my old paperwork. It was sent through the US postal service. Now sure some other package service could probably have rendered the same service, but USPS has federal protections against theft and tampering. No other package service does.

It's the old "faith in government" argument.



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07 Sep 2011, 8:04 pm

ruveyn wrote:
cw10 wrote:
I'm not sold completely. There's a place for the USPS. It's the only protected parcel service in the world. There's precedent for keeping it in service too I think. It still serves as a time stamp for intellectual property. I don't think any other carrier can claim that, and digital formats surely can't.


And no one in the postal service is corrupt, right?

ruveyn

If your standard for allowing a company to stay in business is that 'no one is corrupt,' then we'll have to disband any business with more than one employee.



ruveyn
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07 Sep 2011, 8:38 pm

LKL wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
cw10 wrote:
I'm not sold completely. There's a place for the USPS. It's the only protected parcel service in the world. There's precedent for keeping it in service too I think. It still serves as a time stamp for intellectual property. I don't think any other carrier can claim that, and digital formats surely can't.


And no one in the postal service is corrupt, right?

ruveyn

If your standard for allowing a company to stay in business is that 'no one is corrupt,' then we'll have to disband any business with more than one employee.


The issue was could a sealed document be sufficient proof in a court of law for establishing precedence of publication. The issue was NOT the condition under which a business can operate.

If the post office cannot be trusted to send a properly sealed document, then said document is not a reliable witness of precedence.

ruveyn