Common myth of Christianity??

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This sounds more like Calvinism than Christianity in general. I'm no theologian—I'm not even a Christian—but my understanding is that Christianity breaks down like so on the matter of salvation:

• Roman Catholics: faith and good works
• Lutheranism and Protestantism more generally: by faith and faith alone (some Lutheran denominations have reconciled on this with the Catholic Church, coming to some nuanced, compromise position)
• Calvinism: An elect are predestined for heaven, and they will show outward signs of this through character and wealth/prosperity.
• Mormonism: Varying on Protestantism with its own mythology

Mormons also have the Book of Mormon as sacred text, not just the Bible.

And what do you mean by wealth and prosperity? Good character has nothing to do with wealth and prosperity. I do not believe in the prosperity gospel.

So I take it you are a Calvinist? (otherwise you would not feel it necessary to make the correction)

As a Lutheran, I feel a need to correct what you had posted.
The actual quote goes - "By faith alone, by grace alone, by scripture alone."
But Lutheranism believes that salvation is ultimately earned for us by Christ, and thus is a gift, given as free grace by a loving God to humanity that is in rebellion against Him. Human beings cannot achieve this on their own, and thus salvation is entirely in God's hands. Faith is part of the gift of grace, worked in the believer by the Holy Spirit. That faith can be given to a fully rational adult, or to a new born baby (in which case, it can be described as unconscious), and is kept alive by the word and sacraments. While good works don't achieve salvation, loving your neighbor and caring for him/her is the natural outgrowth. True good works are done not to score points with God (which was one of the early reformers' arguments with Catholicism of the time), but will be done out of love for God and man.
I also feel a need to defend true Calvinism.
John Calvin would never have dreamed of his followers believing that the predestined would be given material wealth as a sign that they were saved.In fact, modern day Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and others are the true linear and theological descendants of Calvinism, and they can hardly be described as believing that those who are saved are given material wealth. If anything, it's modern day evangelicals who teach the prosperity Gospel, in which it's believed the rich are rich because God is rewarding their faith. And few, if any evangelicals can be described as Calvinists, or any sort of original Protestantism.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I'm an evangelical and I DON'T believe in prosperity Gospel. It's really a fairly tiny subset of evangelicals who actually DO believe that, and for most of us it's falling out of vogue. Prosperity gospel is found more within Pentecostal groups. I know some individual Baptists who buy into it and DO NOT like it when you speak badly of Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn--and there's no shortage of Baptist preachers preaching against prosperity gospel. Most of us recognize televangelists like them for the false prophets they are. I know some of the more influential Assemblies of God have been into prosperity, but even they are gradually abandoning it as are many charismatics.

The supposed Biblical basis is a passage that says "Ask anything in My name and you'll receive." There are a couple of problems with that, though. First is with asking anything in Jesus' name. "In the name" often refers to "in the character of" or "like," in other words, asking for the kinds of things Jesus would ask for when He prayed. Second, the passage does not specify what it is the asker will receive. It COULD be health and wealth, or it COULD be something else. Suppose I don't like my wife's friends and don't like her coming home smelling like smoke and cheap wine from hanging out at bars or someone else's trailer. Pretty good thing to ask for if you care about someone you don't want affected by negative influence, right? So suppose one night my wife and I are having a little fun after the kids go to bed and the condom breaks... Ooops...party days are over...

But I asked, right? There was never a guarantee that the prayer would be answered a certain way, just that it would be answered.

I stand corrected concerning yourself, and your branch of evangelicals.

-Bil, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

For the same reasons people put stereotypes on anything in life, I expect.

It could be any or all of:

1. They have limited contact or understanding of the subject.
2. It's a great timesaver.
3. They have their own history with Christianity they aren't entirely recovered from.
4. They depend on cartoonish depictions of a religion found in media or generally in society rather than taking the time to study up on the religion (in all its diversity and its history), because...oh...see #2.

And probably a dozen more I could list if I didn't have an urgent need to buy groceries.

I would like to comment that "twist" is perhaps too strong a term to use. It implies an intent that may not be there, and at least in my experience, mostly is not there.

Most people mistate things about religions (pick any, really) simply because they are mistaken or misinformed. Ignorance is curable with dialogue and eduation.

Bigotry can be cured with love.

Oh yeah, recovering Calvinist that I am, I seem to recall Jesus had a few things to say on that latter subject.

I sincerely hope you are right about this shift, AngelRho. I live in ATL and we've no shortage of prosperity gospel, unfortunately. It still seems to be present in multiple denominations, though many of those churches are "non-denominational."



Like any good parent, I expect God has enough sense to say No when the child is asking for something harmful. So I was taught in the church I was raised in, and while long ago I left that church, and indeed Christianity, I didn't leave everything behind me by any means.

That would be my bet.


I don't know your experience, but I think you might be wrong in terms of what certain people here at WP PPR say.


It's willful ignorance that's the real problem, though. No amount of dialogue, education, and reeducation will say the purposeful unwilling.


"Recovering"? lol Why? I'm not nor ever have been Calvinist. I don't consider myself a true disciple of anyone other than Christ for that matter, so I'm hesitant to accept many labels. Some things in Calvinism I'm cool with, and some things in Arminianism I'm cool with. I don't dispute that there IS predestination, only what it really means. Predestined or not, there is no escaping personal accountability for the decisions one makes.

As to your latter statement, most if not all spiritual ills are cured with love.

Oh, in online conversations, I can well believe it. I was thinking more of general life anyway.




Of course, that's why I put bigotry in a separate line. Willful ignorance is it's own category, sometimes best referred to by other terms like stupidity, stubborness, or yeah, I guess I chose bigotry this time out? *shrug*




Oh, it's something of a joke I use online, as I've been on religions forums a fair bit since...uh the Internet wasn't invented yet? Well, talk about showing my age.

I did leave the Christianity I was raised in for a few major reasons, mostly having to do with the rampant sexism, racism, and anti-scientific reactions common at the time. Well that and I hadn't found any particular reason why I should believe in any God, so it seemed kinda silly to pretend like I did.



Oh, predestination was never explicitly taught to me in the church. Kids and wimmen were not considered smart enough to understand such concepts. We were good for potlucks, watching the kiddies, and arranging flowers for the altar. Oh yeah, and crafts for the annual bazaar. Well, fortunately Calvinism has moved on since that time, so good for them.

Predestination does often seem a misunderstood concept though, though that's another story. Going back to read Calvin on the subject seems more useful than most of what I've seen on religion forums anyway, but that's a pretty heavy lift for a lot of people.

I don't have a problem with the notion that God is Infinite and humans are finite. So if things like time and space look a little different from an Infinite point of view, well ok. Knowing what the future is because one's worldview is not limited by time doesn't mean what people usually make of that. Or as it's often put, foreknowledge does not imply foreordination.

Put in more human terms, I might see someone speeding and about to go over a cliff. I know what's going to happen. It doesn't mean I caused it. It might mean I had a better view of the situation than the driver did, poor sod.



Mercy and justice seem to be the two pillars that hold up what is spiritually, and often physically, best for the world and humanity. Love leads us to both of those.

I hope I'm right, also. I do happen to think that prosperity gospel will ultimately destroy itself. As more an more people who have real physical needs (not recurring migraines) find themselves pushed further and further to the back of the line, and as people give and give and give only to drive themselves deeper into poverty and never see returns on their investment, they'll figure out from personal experience how bogus it is and will eventually fall away. What you DON'T hear about are the revolving back doors in churches like that. The biggest travesty is the amount of pain one must experience before finally figuring out the error of churches like that and their false claims. Here's a link to a guy who practically has a lifetime of personal experience with WOF and conducts seminars about his experiences:

Interview: http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/justin.pdf
Website: http://justinpeters.org/

I think his master's thesis was on Benny Hinn. Sadly he was repeatedly refused access to Benny for research purposes--I wonder why!


Agreed.


Very sorry to hear that. I think part of the problem is that Christianity as put forth by various practitioners in formal kinds of ways really sucks as a religion--that might sound odd coming from me, as I believe very much in the value of organized religion, corporate worship experience, and so on. The problem is not really with formal religion and the hypocrisy that seems to inevitably arise. The problem is with congregants who don't spend time learning what core principles are that Christ actually taught and how to recognize the problems they have when they happen. Neither do I assume that all Christians are good, loving, and (what I call) spiritually mature. We have to exercise empathy even when it's inconvenient. But the sad fact remains that any time you have people together, there will be ugliness. Been there, done that.

I think there are people who break under the problems they experience in their journey and become sort of anti-Christians, but then there are those Anne Rice-type Christians who might be genuine believers but just can't bring themselves to be associated with the "Christian" label. If you're still searching, I do hope you find what you're looking for. That you "didn't leave everything behind" is encouraging.