Two Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door...

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Hi Hikikamori and thanks for posting here! First, remember they are the ones who came to my door, not me to theirs. Second, I do appreciate what they are trying to do. That is why I thanked them for their visit. I appreciate that even though they may be grossly misinformed on some subjects, at least they walk their talk. Third, I did not "talk down" to them but addressed them politely as equals. When they said some things that are egregious errors of fact though, I politely corrected them. This upset them not because I was rude, but because I know a lot more about this subject than most people do and thus disrupted the carefully planned scripts they are taught to use when witnessing about this subject.

For example, I didn't buy into their mistaken understandings (shared by many in the public) about the scientific definition of theory compared to law, and what mitochondrial Eve represents, how evolution actually works, and the existence of transitional fossils. Since I didn't agree with their opening premises and in fact demolished them, their scripts fell apart and they had nowhere to go with their arguments from there. Now IF evolution were the way they describe it, of course it is ridiculous and wrong. However, as Lecks pointed out, they have been grossly misinformed about this subject so their conclusions are totally bogus.

No, evolution is not "just a theory" and it is much more than just isolated facts. There are many different types of evidence that all point to the same reality, so much that if evolution didn't happen basically we would have to discard everything we know of science including not just biology but chemistry, physics, geology and cosmology. Also, they do NOT have a competing scientific theory to offer in its place. They have religious dogma, yes, but their ideas are NOT supported by any physical evidence and are in fact falsified by much, while evolution is supported by all the evidence and falsified by none. Quite a difference, I'd say.

If you are a sincere seeker of truth, I recommend checking the talk origins web site for information on this controversy. They debunk the creationist arguments and clearly show why they are false with links to online references and resources of the evidence including links to creationist sites. Of particular interest are An Index to Creationist Claims and, for many blatant examples of the dishonesty of creationist web sites, The Quote Mine Project. There is also a page specifically about Jehovah's Witnesses and Evolution that addresses and corrects that sect's specific sources of (mis)information.

Finally, for a bit of fun, check out a song I wrote about this controversy in 1991 that is (sadly) still relevant. It is important to note (so I wrote a song, using musical notes) that there is no scientific controversy about this subject. The scientific verdict was in a long time ago, and the evidence for and our understanding of evolution has only grown in past decades despite creationist claims to the contrary. This is a social and religious controversy, NOT a scientific one. As I say in my song: "The scientists argue how it happened; they argue why. But they agree it did happen, it's senseless to deny."

Oh and leejosepho: your most recent reply (posted while I was composing this one) was spot on. While we may disagree or not see some things the same way, I appreciate your respect and respect you in turn. However, my "official" abbreviation is TBG, not BG. I have had the stage name of "The Bicycling Guitarist" since the early 1980s. It has already been arranged for that be inscribed on my grave marker, so that nickname is literally carved in stone. In real life I actually introduce myself to people as "The Bicycling Guitarist" or TBG (pronounced "teebeegee") for short. Thanks

You exaggerate, science is not going to be destroyed if the evolution theory ( it's still a theory) is not correct.
Is the world gonna end too? (global warming, global warming, global warming!)
You act as if science is flawless, especially with something like this. The basis of science is that things can never be proven with absolute complete certainty. Remember It's a methodology. We don't know it all.

I'm sure you have a lot of links but i don't care to much about either theories.

You must have appreciated them so much you came on an online forum just to tell people how grateful you were. Your title even seems like the beginning of a joke.

This is all about you, how smart you are, how much you know, How much you've studied, how you got them GOOD, oh and your songs. You invited them in knowing what they were going to say with their witnessing and you knew what you were going to try to do to them. You Then you came on here to boast about your accomplishment. I guess it worked because look at the people get on the hate the JW bicycle wagon. Get them before they get away right?

What were you going for digging at their religion? They were mistaken and you just had to correct them is that all? Why don't you tell them about the big bang, that's been proven too.

and you didn't do it politely and you obviously don't think of them as equals. They're idiots right for believing in something like that and not precious science.

That is just a personal perception -- things are not always as they seem.

Mormons own an apartment near to mine. (Ya, I know you can't own one specific apartment, you rent it -- but I mean they perpetually rent it as one of their missionary outposts.) Used to be two weird girls, now it's two bicycling boys. They knocked on our door the other night. (Ya, NIGHT -- what's wrong with them? My porch light was out too, making them mere silhouettes -- creepy.)

Anyway, they tried to draw me into a debate, 2-on-one, with both of them clearly sporting a superiority complex and unwilling to really listen to me. So I just Aspied on them, basically letting them monologue until they left in frustration that I wouldn't engage. Sure, I could have, but it's also Scriptural to refuse.

Galatians 1:6-9

Sensing they weren't open to anything new, I passed on trying.

I had a similar visit from a JW recently who came with a flyer on international politics. The views espoused within were so dramatically misinformed that one could not take them seriously.

I personally wish people would stay silent on those sorts of issues. There is a specific warning in Romans about not espousing views that are outside of one's purview that can cause other to stumble in their faith.

Meh - JW never come to my door. And i got "the book of dawkins" nearby and everything...

Many scientific branches heavily rely on the theory of evolution and if, for some reason, it's proven to be false then each of those branches will have to be completely retooled, effectively making us start from scratch.


Then why are you talking about them?


You're reading too much into it, from what BG said he was very friendly but simply dissagreed and corrected them.


There's no JW hate here.


As he said, they left before he got the chance to go into any details and again, nothing indicates he was "digging" at their religion.


Why are you reading so much into his posts? You're basing his attitude on absolutely nothing and frankly, I think you're projecting.

The odds of that are vanishingly small. He is no more likely to do that than you are to think, "hmm, maybe I should reconsider my stand on evolution and look into this Creationism business." Would you do that? Of course not. People don't change their world views because some guy tells them a bundle of information contrary to what they deeply believe. People do experience paradigm shifts but these things happen because of important events in their own lives, not because some guy says, "no- you've been lied to".

All that happened is that both of you got to practice your chops. You got to refine arguments that you might be able to use to sway people who aren't firmly comnmitted to a belief either way. And they got a small catalogue of things they need to think up rebuttals to if they are going to convince the next fence-sitter they encounter. The fence-sitter won't launch those arguments at them (if he did he wouldn't be a fence sitter) but they can incorporate rebuttals into their spiel in a "Myths You May Have Heard From Evolutionists" format.

It's a lot like PPR. Marshall once created a thread that wondered what the point of debating in PPR is, since hardliners literally never change their stance, regardless of what evidence in the form of links or sound arguments their opponents bring up. I replied that the value of debate is not to change the mind of your opponent. That will never happen. The value is to sway fence-sitters who haven't firmly decided one way or the other. The younger JW is not a fence sitter, even if he couldn't come up with rebuttals fast enough and looked flummoxed. If he weren't committed, he wouldn't have gone door-to-door. All you accomplished was showing them exactly what rebuttals they need to come up with to convince fence-sitters.

Creationists have evolved their stance (ironic!) to incorporate fragments of evolutionary theory because of encounters like yours. That's how they came up with the concept of Macroevolution and Microevolution. They had to think up rebuttals to the evolutionary arguments biologists made about evolving bacterial resistance. And they did. Those concepts aren't scientifically valid. But that hardly matters if they are trying to convince a person with only mild scientific literacy who is a fence sitter.




Or neither. They can continue to deny evolution and a segment of the population will continue to believe them because it is very emotionally appealing. Meanwhile, another segment of the population will continue to be scientifically literate and continue to fight them. Meanwhile, a third segment of the population (probably the largest) will not be overly scientifically literate but will have an in-betweener balance whereby they manage to believe both in God and also in evolution, with different people believing different variations. The most common variation that I've heard is "God created life using evolution as the tool".

I know there is a real danger in the Creationism believers gaining a firm foothold. They can stymie actual needed research because of their beliefs. But as long as the inbetweeners remain the majority (believing in a God who used evolution as a tool) I don't think we will revert to a scientifically illiterate dark ages. But I also don't think the Creationsist will simply fade into obscurity in the face of awesome arguments by scientists. Instead, they will do what they are already doing- incorporate those arguments into an ideology that has a scientific veneer, to fool the inbetweeners into sliding away from sitting on their fence (where there is both God and evolution) and moving away from their meme-based belief in evolution, that only has dimly remembered highschool biology to back it up. (I call it meme-based because I don't think they deeply understand it but it is one of those things that "everybody knows", a meme rather than actual understanding.)

I am a firm proponent of evolution, just like you. But not because I used to be unbelieving of it until somebody set me straight. I always believed it, even as a scientifically illiterate little kid. Or rather, before I heard about it in school, I approached the world as a series of mysteries that could be figured out if I just poked at them enough. That's a preschooler's version of the scientific mindset. So the countless people who have tried to argue otherwise with me have failed. Just as they failed with you. A mindset can't be changed by arguments. That's why when they come to my door, I don't waste my time giving them a bunch of arguments that they can mull over rebuttals for after their door-to-door business is done. I just say, "sorry, I'm not interested" and close the door.

I just ask them how many will sit at God's right hand in the kingdom of heaven and how many JWs there are in the world.

And then ask them why i shouldn't seek a faith that gives me better odds.

TY Lecks. You nailed it. Yeah Hikikamori, What Lecks says with one small correction:

Instead of saying
"Many scientific branches heavily rely on the theory of evolution and if, for some reason, it's proven to be false then each of those branches will have to be completely retooled, effectively making us start from scratch"

I was thinking the opposite, that evolution is supported by so much evidence based on principles and observations of those other branches of science (they don't rely on it as much as it relies on them), that if it is somehow proven to be false, we would have to to start all of science over from scratch. Now if that actually happens, I would be delighted. I want nothing more than to know the truth, whether or not it conflicts with what I think I already know, or with what anyone (or everyone) else says, or with what I want to believe.

Last edited by TheBicyclingGuitarist on 27 Oct 2011, 5:35 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Many Christians used to believe the sun travels around the earth instead of vice versa based partly on what we see with our own eyes and partly on reading certain Bible verses using the same style of interpretation that leads some today to think evolution can't be real either. How many Churches today take the official position that the sun travels around the earth instead of vice versa? Not many, right? But that used to be the "official" position of mainstream Christianity. There used to be (maybe still are) some flat earth believers too (although they have never been so mainstream so far as I know) and they would use selected verses from the Bible to "prove" their point.

Already most mainstream Christian denominations accept the FACT of evolution (take note of that word, Hikikamori), so most Christians worldwide belong to denominations that officially at least do not have a problem with that fact of nature. This does not destroy their faith in God, no more or less than accepting the fact of the heliocentric solar system. I wonder though if some people back in the day left their religion over that flap.

The way science works, eventually the weight of evidence will be so overwhelming (even more than it already is) that acceptance of the fact of evolution will be as mainstream as acceptance of the heliocentric solar system, with only a few fringe lunatic cults insisting that the sun really travels around the earth, the earth is flat, or evolution doesn't happen. It may take a while, much longer if the Creationists are not challenged when they spread such blatant misinformation.

That's what offends me the most, the blatant denials, distortions and out and out LIES spread by those who supposedly claim the moral high ground.

That may have been one of Saint Augustine's sources when he said much the same thing in The Literal Meaning of Genesis (De Genesi ad litteram). Speaking for me personally, the fundamentalist evangelical position on evolution is one of the main reasons I was turned away from that flavor of Christianity. I cannot deny reality. I will not belong to a church that insists the earth is flat either, unless they or I are doing it as a joke.

I would just slap them hard on their rights cheeks and expect to slap them again on their left cheeks....and again on their right..... never-ending amusing loop.

I dare you to do that to the next member of Hezbollah who knocks on your door.

Hehe, this is something funny happened to me a year ago:

"The library of Light" , a Hezbollah library called me twice to ask 'We have a special offer for the Sayyid Hassan Nasrallah's biography volumes", before she continues I always replied "no thanks , I would just go wiki" and hang up the phone.


The second time my workplace's phone rang and there was a recorded voice message , it was saying something like that : "We are the IDF, if you know any info about the missing Israeli pilot, call the xxxxxxx x and we'll give you a $20,000 as reward."

I just hanged up the phone without saying anything.

Just after 5 mins, the phone rang again and there was this lady again asking me to buy the Nasrallah's biography volumes....

They create the trap in order to accuse their rivals for treason.

I'm outnumbered and I don't want to get involved in this discussion. From my experience most of you are pretty solid in your beliefs so there's nothing I could write, or show from the bible, that would change your minds...

Regarding that link, that's a good article, but I would highly recommend next month's Awake issue.
http://download.jw.org/files/media_maga ... 201111.pdf


I also recommend these brochures: The Origin of Life: Five Questions Worth Asking and Was Life Created?. The later contains information and quotes from over 30 scientific resources, while Origin of Life contains over 50 scientific resources. You may ask any Jehovah's Witness for a free personal copy of both these brochures the next time you see them... if you wish.