Which slope are we on? (Poll)

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30 Nov 2011, 5:51 am

It is rather silly to see any of these as inevitable, especially since communism and fascism are broadly discredited and the others are at best notional, otherwise undefined.

It is futile to predict the future in such ways. From the present, it is easy to see that those of the past did not (fore)see the oppressive systems of their future -- and anyway, it is generally not clear whether it was, then, seen as a real oppression by everyone but some of the litterate upper class.

We are entirely capable of creating new injustice without copying the past.

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30 Nov 2011, 6:56 am

Arlfc

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JakobVirgil
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30 Nov 2011, 8:41 am

Burnbridge wrote:

To the OP: I take by "anarchism" you actually mean "chaos?"

I did not say "anarchism" I said anarchy.

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ruveyn
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30 Nov 2011, 9:13 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

Why is communism horrible?

It always ends up like Stalinist Russia or The Pipple's Republic of North Korea. Squalor, Starvation, Brutality and worst of all, Boredom.

ruveyn

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30 Nov 2011, 10:15 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

Burnbridge wrote:

To the OP: I take by "anarchism" you actually mean "chaos?"

I did not say "anarchism" I said anarchy. :)

Ah, thanks for the clarification. You did mean chaos!

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JakobVirgil
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30 Nov 2011, 10:27 am

Burnbridge wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Burnbridge wrote:

To the OP: I take by "anarchism" you actually mean "chaos?"

I did not say "anarchism" I said anarchy.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. You did mean chaos!

Anarchism would be Utopian (Eu-topian) not dystopian
the categories are just slippery slope scares.

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Sweetleaf
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30 Nov 2011, 11:02 am

ruveyn wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Why is communism horrible?

It always ends up like Stalinist Russia or The Pipple's Republic of North Korea. Squalor, Starvation, Brutality and worst of all, Boredom.

ruveyn

Those are not communist societies...

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ruveyn
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30 Nov 2011, 11:35 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Why is communism horrible?

It always ends up like Stalinist Russia or The Pipple's Republic of North Korea. Squalor, Starvation, Brutality and worst of all, Boredom.

ruveyn

Those are not communist societies...

As you said, there are none. They are societies with centralized government control, the kind you just love to pieces.

In the real world, the more the government controls, the worse things are.

As Thomas Jefferson once wrote: Were the government to ordain when we should sow and when we should read, we should all soon want for bread.

ruveyn

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30 Nov 2011, 11:47 am

I am in Britain. I think

LAFCR

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30 Nov 2011, 11:50 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

As any thinking person knows we are headed to an inevitable horrible future.
but which one?

(F)ascism?
(C)ommunism?
(R)eligious dictatorship?
a (L)iberal cesspool where dogs can marry cats?
(A)narchy

All of the above. They can all be found in Occupy Wall Street alone.

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30 Nov 2011, 12:01 pm

ruveyn wrote:

...They are societies with centralized government control, the kind you just love to pieces.

In the real world, the more the government controls, the worse things are.

As Thomas Jefferson once wrote: Were the government to ordain when we should sow and when we should read, we should all soon want for bread.

Why, ruveyn, if i didn't know any better I'd think you were a Syndicate Anarchist at heart, but you just don't know it! You seem to advocate putting production in the hands of the workers producing the object instead of having some trumped bosses, (owners, investors and bureaucrats) telling everyone what to make and when to make it.

A sole owner / entrepeneur of a massive company is no more "decentralized" than an autocratic dictatorship, yes? A "government by investors," as corporations are, is an oligarchy just as much as Soviet Russia was, yes?

You seem to want to decentralization: let the auto workers decide how they want to make their autos in their factory, etc., instead of some gov't committee mandating how many autos are needed or some lazy investors demanding higher profits w/o participating at all in the labor.

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30 Nov 2011, 12:02 pm

Ragtime wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

All of the above. They can all be found in Occupy Wall Street alone.

I think you seriously need to do a little studying up on the Occupy movement before you make blanket, clearly contradictory statements about them.
Don't you think that religious dictatorship and communism tend to clash? Let alone fascism?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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30 Nov 2011, 12:04 pm

Burnbridge wrote:

Once the workers are in "control" the Mafia will take over. Look at U.S. labor unions. If they are effective at all, they are in the hands of organized crime. Like the Teamsters Union.

I do not wish to be governed by shambling proles who drag their knuckles as they walk and who idea of the "good life" is all the beer they can drink and all the t.v. they can watch. Give your prole something to drink and something to f**k and he is a happy prole.

ruveyn

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30 Nov 2011, 12:10 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Burnbridge wrote:

While the teamsters clearly have had a dirty past, that can't be applied to every union.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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30 Nov 2011, 12:15 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Once the workers are in "control" the Mafia will take over. Look at U.S. labor unions. If they are effective at all, they are in the hands of organized crime. Like the Teamsters Union.

Um...my Grandpa was a Teamsters boss (back in the hoffa years)...and it wasn't a union at all, it was organized crime. He carried a 9mm, it was part of the job.

I personally feel the Unions to be a complete sham that has nothing to do with worker advocacy. The Unions as the now stand (Wobblies excepted), are workers ceding control to professional advocates. Advocates that bargain for their personal profit. Unions have ceded nearly every "worker's right" that was won at the turn of the 19th-20th century, quite slowly, in tacit agreement with the business owners.

Unions have nothing to do with direct worker control. Their purpose is to convince workers to shut up and go back to work.

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30 Nov 2011, 12:22 pm

I think we (U.S.) are currently under an oligarchy, headed for some kind of revolution.
We'll probably end up with a backward, redneck Christian dictatorship that is disguised as a democratic movement. Then we'll have WWIII with the Middle East.

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