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I am trying to be polite. Let me make that clear. This is very hard, because I don't like racist crap. Now, listen to the American, because we are experts on immigration, if nothing else.

A hundred-and-change years ago poor, desperate Europeans were swarming over our borders. You think you're seeing a wave? Hah. Everything you and the other fella said about your immigrants was said about them. And guess what? The Irish/Italians/Germans/Polish/every other European ethnicity, it turns out, were not barbarians (vintage racism! Cute!) They were just poor and disenfranchised, like your immigrants. Now it's your turn to get the tired, poor, humbled masses yearning to be free.

Because that's why they're there. Not to torment the poor ole white people. Remember how good you have it in your cushy developed country, and have some danged respect for people who left everything they knew behind to make a better life.

You don't understand the context of Europe. Our experience with mass immigration is so much different to that of North America. A new country wasn't being built, the main political parties just decided to go over our heads and import millions of immigrants without asking their electorates. It's not like there has been a melting-pot scenario like in the U.S. - where a genuine multiculturalism does seem to work, and work very well in most instances - these people have been dumped on us for, in many cases, no discernible reason. Often, these people are coming in illegally, without the necessary checks and balances. Hundreds of thousands of people are coming in every year, often from poor countries. These people offer little to the British economy - there simply aren't the jobs out there, even for UK citizens - and they frequently just end up living off the state and claiming benefits, whilst often contributing to our social problems with increased crime, amongst other things. This is not a good situation to be in. And this is still ongoing.

Immigration can be a good thing when it's controlled and/or wanted. When there is no real need for it, and the people are coming in regardless - remember we have an open door to the whole of Eastern Europe due to our membership with the EU (imagine the U.S. having an open door to Mexico and the Central American countries) - it just means more strain on our public services for people we never really needed in the first place. In 2004, the UK government told us that around 20,000 Eastern Europeans would come to the UK; the final number was well over a million.

Controlled, supervised immigration for people who contribute to our society is a great thing - uncontrolled mass immigration isn't.

I think we can all agree on that. However, immigration policy is not what I'm talking about. My issue is with the racist shi*t being said on this thread. I know ethnic groups are handy-dandy scapegoats, but you can't make broad, sweeping "OMG, Pakistanis do all the bad things!" statements. That is textbook, undeniable racism. My point was that all the racist stuff that was said about y'all was not true, and neither are the things stated on this thread.

Check Your Privilege

and: Other Checklists

I beg of you, check your dang privilege!

This is true. A better comparison would be opening borders with Mexico for everyone to just walk in. Though, that's not the entire story - the moment they're in, they should be granted passports, state-funded easy integration courses, cultural subsidies, mild punishment for crimes, and welfare checks. Then it would begin, slightly, to look like Europe. We're not allowed to build a shed in our gardens without planning permissions, but a largely-plastic mosque in the middle of a city is fine.

If you think it's a poverty thing, a lot of them have brand-new BMWs and Audis. And they have the time and money to do this:



No, this is not turkey. It's The Hague. A protest in favour of the Turkish government. Last year.
Turks are one of the groups who largely 'stick together' instead of being part of society.

In other news, I just signed a petition. Apparently, there are plans to release the guy who assassinated Pim Fortuyn ten years ago. He says he doesn't regret shooting a guy whose political ideas have now become commonplace among the general population, and that he'd gladly do it again, but he's been "behaving well". The petition called for them to at least let him sit out the original meagre eighteen years in prison instead of releasing him years early.



Actually, they have privileges here. A few miles from my house is the largest mosque in Western Europe, the Essalam Mosque in Rotterdam, funded by dubious Arab money and towering above that part of the city. Each Friday, all mosques in the Netherlands (in one neighbourhood in The Hague, I counted three in a few acres) are allowed to brutally violate noise regulations with islamic calls for prayer.

Can I just say, before anyone else does HisDivineMajesty...

Racist! Racist! Racist! Nazi! Bigot! Xenophobe! Islam hater! Nazi! Racist!

As you were.

What he is saying is all true - there are some very dodgy dealings going on in Europe. A lot of mosques in Europe are being built with Arab money, and they spread Wahhabism - one of the most primitive and growing sects of Islam - like a plague.

I am trying to be polite. Let me make that clear. This is very hard because I don't like being lectured by arrogant North Americans that think they know the intricacies of European politics better than Europeans do.

Your proud and tolerant nation was founded on a continent wide genocide and the ethnic cleansing of it's native peoples.

Still feeling smug and superior?

The British press consider Canadian immigration policies to be xenophobic, that is how much of an open door policy has been run over the last decade, the USA immigration policy is way, way tougher than the British one.

Oh yes aren't you, the proud tolerant Americans, the ones with the barbed wire fence across the border with mexico and roving armed patrols picking up immigrants? How very tolerant of you.

How many black people are in your prison system again? How large is the US penal system? Well that is a fine example to follow, let us Europeans take our nations and multiply our incarceration rates by a factor of ten, hoorah!

Listen, buster. Here's your privilege: I'm willing to bet nobody has ever said dubious white money. Because it's only dubious if it's brown people, right?

Also: ever heard of church bells? Those mothers are loud as all get out twelve times a day. But those are white people ringing them, so I guess you don't care. Gosh, why don't the Turks in your country want to assimilate? You seem so welcoming and nonjudgmental.


Please take a gander at those links. A document like the first one changed my life and my way of seeing the world.

Look at the ill-informed, arrogant Yank sticking their oars into things they know sod-all about!

You clearly know very little about my country. It is pointless discussing this further with you. Goodnight.

As much as I hate to admit it, there is a valid point in there. I understand that the situation where I am (Canada) and Europe is very different, but I can't help but suspect I'm not getting the entire story from either side of the problem.

Changing an immigrant family's culture is easier said than done. We get most of our values from our parents, and they get most of their values from their parents, etc. Turning your back on your family's culture and accepting the mainstream culture always feels like a betrayal, even if you can see clearly that the mainstream culture is better.

People often mention that East Asian families tend to "integrate" very well into Western societies. But actually, they don't! It's just that East Asian cultures tend to value hard work and tend to reject the victim mentality. They haven't integrated, they're still the same. It's just that their culture doesn't cause problems.

Cultural assimilation, if it happens at all, will take more than a few generations. It requires people to lose their roots. Would you like to lose your roots?

Last edited by Declension on 08 May 2012, 6:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

There is dubious white money, of course. But this money originated in shady tax constructs in Dubai. There have also been imams, islamic preachers, trying to recruit jihad fighters, preaching strict religion and complete disrespect for non-islamic societies with Saudi subsidies.



There are two churches I can see from my bedroom window, as I live in one of the 'white enclave' towns in our main metropolitan area. In Rotterdam, over half the population is non-European. That number rises to 80-90% in some neighbourhoods. I can hardly hear church bells, but when I'm in The Hague, I can hear their prayer calls. I've talked to someone who lived next to a mosque, and he moved out because he was awoken by shouts.

What I should mention, though, is that I know plenty of North Americans outside this forum who tend to take moral high ground and say we should be tolerant. How much of your population is muslim? Over here, it's one in twenty people, and expected to rise rapidly over the next twenty years. In my region, it's well over 10% of the population, and they're not the most tolerant people. It should not come as a surprise that Wilders and Fortuyn are adored here.

Interestingly, Dutch people are moving away from the country in large numbers. It's very grim here now.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... rlands.jpg

Exactly - I should have been clearer - this is often Saudi money that is funding these new mosques and Islamic schools. And we all know what a bastion of liberalism Saudi Arabia is...

You misunderstand.

The House of Saud is a corrupt, westernized, liberal regime.

Extreme faithful muslims despise them.

They are able to maintain their control of their kingdom because they allow the imams to run things on the street level. And because they occasionally pay really unpleasant characters like the black sheep of the also fairly westernized and liberal Bin Laden family to GTFO.

They also fund the mosques and islamic schools to keep their population from violently overthrowing them.

Last edited by blauSamstag on 08 May 2012, 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

So, it's all fun, fun, fun then?

And yes, I meant Saudi Arabia on the ground, rather than what their 'princes' and what have you get up to.

And yes, I am aware of the activities of the House of Saud - that they drink, smoke, do drugs and indulge themselves in every perversion imaginable.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnLTHHpKl60[/youtube]

This is a very good point, and it hints at the core issue. Western societies cannot reject Islam unless they also reject Christianity.

There is only one good reason to criticise Islam. Its central claims are not true. The methods that we can use to argue against the central claims of Islam being true are the very same methods that we can use to argue against the central claims of Christianity being true.

If you try to criticise Islam in some other way, it won't work. If you say, "Islam causes you do to bad things!" the Muslims will just say, "The omnibenevolent creator of the universe has commanded us to do those things, so they can't be bad!" If you say, "You shouldn't take the Koran literally!" the Muslims will just say, "Of course we should! God wrote it!"

If Western societies insist that Christianity is the backbone of Western culture, then they have no moral highground from which they can dismiss Islam as medieval nonsense. Remember, the most prominent Western figures who advocate the tolerance of Islam are the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury. The most prominent Western figures who advocate the rejection and ridicule of Islam are the New Atheists.

Last edited by Declension on 08 May 2012, 7:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

I'd be quite happy to. Make it perfectly legal to be a Muslim, or a Christian, or a Jew... but leave everyone else out of it please. Treat it like masturbation - something to do in the privacy of your home without other people watching you.