Religion in American compared to Europe

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21 May 2012, 9:34 am

one of the few places religion is still present in denmark is at confirmation, weddings and funerals. some families still attend church at christmas but all in all i can go about my buisness for months without having any real life religious interaction.

suits me fine, especially since religious studies are handled in a multicultural fashion and the teacher is usually atheist, they tend to prefer them as the school i was at had to fire a teacher from jehovas witnesses due to not adhering to the pensum and denying students their opinion,
oddly enough i later attended class with that teachers son and had the son been the teacher he would probably still have the job.

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Mummy_of_Peanut
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21 May 2012, 10:01 am

TallyMan wrote:

It was 100% Christianity and it was taught as though God was real and that it was God that created the Earth in seven days etc. It was also taught as fact that we had all descended from Adam and Eve. The religious education teacher herself was a confirmed Christian. The thing that rattled my 11 year old brain the most was the way this teaching totally contradicted the teaching of evolution in science class by what I assume was an atheist/agnostic teacher. Both could not be right!

I went to a Catholic school and all the teachers in Scottish Catholic schools are Catholic and teach RE along with their own subject. So, my biology teacher taught me about evolution as well as bible scripture and professed both to be true. However, I've a sneaking suspicion he didn't believe the Old Testament stories, at the very least.

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21 May 2012, 12:19 pm

Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:

TallyMan wrote:

Here's an ironic contradiction for you: I had an teacher in the SNE school I when to; who was teaching RE, English and French.
This teacher is an atheist who was both an Catholic priest and Jesuit missionary before entering into the teaching profession.

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enrico_dandolo
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21 May 2012, 1:37 pm

CaptainTrips222 wrote:

That's actually very interesting. But I meant not just in politics, I mean, are they more religious in general? I was wondering if they're as fervent overall.

I live in Montréal, in Quebec.

I went to precisely one "normal" religious service. It was on Christmas Eve. My sister wanted to join a choir under the director she had in another choir, and the first one she found was a church's choir. Despite the fact that it was a significant mass in a relatively important church, hardly the quarter of the church's benches were filled (including my 15 family members present as support to my sister). There was also a large empty space without any benches.

Here, people still celebrate funerals and weddings religiously... occasionnally. Especially funerals, because they are for older, possibly still religious people. As for weddings, fewer and fewer people even marry at all. There are many laws protecting de facto unions. According to my father (married in civil union), the only real advantage is that you are considered independant from your parents for the purpose of student grants.

I don't know anyone openly religious. The only personn I ever saw defending Christianity didn't say a word about the Bible, just said that God gave her hope and helped her overcome a dark past, or something like that. She knew she was in the minority.

I went to a Jesuit high school myself. The last remaining Jesuit teacher had retired several years ago. I never heard any of my teachers say anything even remotely pro-religious, except one of my two religious studies teachers (the other one was trained as a latin teacher and was completely neutral about Christianity), but, as I remember it, there were anti-clerical opinions in the air. I repeat: this was a Jesuit school.

Thom_Fuleri
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21 May 2012, 5:21 pm

It's not just religion. America is curiously loud about many other things - like patriotism. Loving your country and being proud of your heritage is fine in Europe - but making a fuss about it is considered poor taste (except during football matches, for some reason). Religion is much the same - here in the UK a lot of people would call themselves Christians, though they seldom go to church. They're more inclined to just accept God is probably there somewhere and get on with the grocery shopping or something. Religion simply isn't important.

It might be because America is still a teenager, in country terms. European history goes back thousands of years; America has a couple of hundred. When you don't have much experience to fall back on, you tend to shout louder about what you do have.

enrico_dandolo
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22 May 2012, 12:29 am

Thom_Fuleri wrote:

It might be because America is still a teenager, in country terms. European history goes back thousands of years; America has a couple of hundred. When you don't have much experience to fall back on, you tend to shout louder about what you do have.

Well, in Canada, we are relatively indifferent to religion and only really patriotic during the Winter Olympics* (the only moment where the Canadian hockey team doesn't conflict with the local hockey team), yet our country is even younger than America.

* I live in Quebec, so maybe it is just that being Canadian is negatively seen as being anti-Quebec.

Declension
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22 May 2012, 1:05 am

Thom_Fuleri wrote:

I don't think it works like that. European history is American history. Similarly, you could say that New Zealand is an extremely young country, but it would be more accurate to say that its (white) history starts in Europe, moves to New Zealand, and just keeps going. And New Zealand isn't very religious or patriotic. I think that it has more to do with what types of people immigrated to America, as opposed to Canada or New Zealand.

EDIT: Wait, I just thought of something. Maybe America really is a "young country", even though it is older than countries which are not "young countries", such as New Zealand. Maybe the key is that Americans tend to refuse to accept that European history is their history, because America was founded explicitly in opposition to the British Empire. Whereas New Zealand and Canada are still members of the Commonwealth and the Realm, and even if they weren't, they would still be happy to consider themselves to be a continuation of the British project in some sense.

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22 May 2012, 3:48 am

Declension wrote:

EDIT: Wait, I just thought of something. Maybe America really is a "young country", even though it is older than countries which are not "young countries", such as New Zealand. Maybe the key is that Americans tend to refuse to accept that European history is their history, because America was founded explicitly in opposition to the British Empire. Whereas New Zealand and Canada are still members of the Commonwealth and the Realm, and even if they weren't, they would still be happy to consider themselves to be a continuation of the British project in some sense.

The American republic is the longest lasting longest running republic in the world operating under the same constitution. The only major break was the Civil War and the country was put back together again after it.

In America the people created a new world for themselves and did not weigh themselves down with the dross of detritus of the Dark and Middle Ages. That was a time of suffering and plauge.

ruveyn

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22 May 2012, 5:17 am

ruveyn wrote:

But I don't think that "constitutions" is really the relevant type of historical continuity. A country can change its constitution and still consider itself to be the same country as it was before.

In fact, you might be proving Thom_Fuleri's point by revealing that Americans think of their Constitution as being their origin. Many other countries would tend to consider their origin to be more of a messy affair involving ethnic ties, historical claims to land, and tradition, even if these things took place on the other side of the world.

EDIT: This topic reminded me of something that G.K. Chesterton wrote, which is worth putting here.

G.K. Chesterton wrote:

[discussing the paperwork required in order to enter the U.S., which includes questions such as "Are you an anarchist?"]

It may have seemed something less than a compliment to compare the
American Constitution to the Spanish Inquisition. But oddly enough, it
does involve a truth; and still more oddly perhaps, it does involve a
compliment. The American Constitution does resemble the Spanish
Inquisition in this: that it is founded on a creed. America is the only
nation in the world that is founded on a creed. That creed is set forth
with dogmatic and even theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence; perhaps the only piece of practical politics that is also
theoretical politics and also great literature. It enunciates that all
men are equal in their claim to justice, that governments exist to give
them that justice, and that their authority is for that reason just. It
certainly does condemn anarchism, and it does also by inference condemn
atheism, since it clearly names the Creator as the ultimate authority
from whom these equal rights are derived. Nobody expects a modern
political system to proceed logically in the application of such dogmas,
and in the matter of God and Government it is naturally God whose claim
is taken more lightly. The point is that there is a creed, if not about
divine, at least about human things.

...

In short, it is
not fair to do what almost every Englishman probably does; to look at
the American international examination paper, and laugh and be satisfied
with saying, 'We don't have any of that nonsense in England.'

We do not have any of that nonsense in England because we have never
attempted to have any of that philosophy in England. And, above all,
because we have the enormous advantage of feeling it natural to be
national, because there is nothing else to be. England in these days is
not well governed; England is not well educated; England suffers from
wealth and poverty that are not well distributed. But England is
English; esto perpetua. England is English as France is French or
Ireland Irish; the great mass of men taking certain national traditions
for granted. Now this gives us a totally different and a very much
easier task. We have not got an inquisition, because we have not got a
creed; but it is arguable that we do not need a creed, because we have
got a character. In any of the old nations the national unity is
preserved by the national type. Because we have a type we do not need to
have a test.

Thom_Fuleri
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22 May 2012, 11:56 am

ruveyn wrote:

It's not the same constitution. There are so many amendments! :-)

Besides, how is that a good thing? Having the same system in place for centuries denies progress.

Quote:

In America the people created a new world for themselves and did not weigh themselves down with the dross of detritus of the Dark and Middle Ages. That was a time of suffering and plague.

First, the big plagues in Europe were before America was settled, weren't they?

Second, America has seriously missed out there. A good plague can make for some serious improvements to a country. London was a rat-infested urban craphole before the plague and fire of 1665/66. Whenever you rebuild after something like that, you improve. This is why European infrastructure is so much better than the US (faster broadband, better trains, etc) - because America is still using more or less the same set-up it's always had, but the European stuff was blown to bits in World War 2.

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22 May 2012, 3:30 pm

Thom_Fuleri wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

It's not the same constitution. There are so many amendments! :-)

Besides, how is that a good thing? Having the same system in place for centuries denies progress.

Quote:

In America the people created a new world for themselves and did not weigh themselves down with the dross of detritus of the Dark and Middle Ages. That was a time of suffering and plague.

And considering that America has been late for every victory in civil liberties this century (female suffrage, black rights, gay rights, etc.), I don't think he has too much reason to act so superior.

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22 May 2012, 8:40 pm

I'm sure this had been said before. In Europe, religion is seen as a cultural identity, In America, it is seen as a way of life that is not to be deviated from in any way. Deviating away from the religion of majority in your family or community can result in ostracism. Some have said that if something happens in Europe, it will make its way across the Atlantic within 20 years. This can be a good thing and a bad thing. I certainly don't want the outrageous prices on food and fuel making their way here, but I would welcome the depoliticization of religion with open arms.

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22 May 2012, 10:30 pm

I believe that many churches here in America are in decline. Even though there are a number of megachurches, church membership is declining, especially among younger people. Even women, the most supportive of church, are also abandoning it. The most conservative Christian groups are increasingly angry because they lost their access to the White House when President Obama was elected. The large, evangelical voting blocs are increasingly divided and no longer have the power they once had. For that, I am thankful. My dream is that American politics will no longer have to pander to a bunch of religious lunatics. My other dream is that Americans will finally reject the disgusting televangelists that pollute our airwaves.
I was stationed in Germany years ago. We Americans can learn much from Europeans how to learn life better. I was always impressed how many people in Germany enjoyed their lives, yet few of them actually attended church services.

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22 May 2012, 11:04 pm

Thom_Fuleri wrote:

It's not the same constitution. There are so many amendments! :-)

Besides, how is that a good thing? Having the same system in place for centuries denies progress.

Our constitution is still very short compared to most other countries, and acts as a safeguard against abuses rather than a barrier to make any changes to our laws. We can still pass laws to run our society in a way that keeps up with the time, but the are some things that politicians are not allowed to do. I am well aware that the integrity of our constitution is strained and even under attack from the inside by "progressives" and it is very concerning, but the constitution currently has the means a little longer to hold out and dismantle infringing laws once a new administration and new senators are in power. I don't expect old guard republicans to do much to personally undo the threats to personal liberty anymore than old democrats. Both parties platforms cause negative side effects. What it will do is give people more of a chance to go to the courts and contest whether or not a particular line in the U.S. Code or even a whole bill should have ever been allowed in the first place.

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