Are there any gay people who think they choose to be gay?

Post Reply New Topic

Yes, but from a personal standpoint I still didn't choose to be gay. Someone claiming otherwise is wrong and I feel an irrational compulsion to correct wrong statements.

I don't think any Gay people chose to be Gay. For one thing, in almost any society, they would have to suffer all sorts of discrimination. The only choice that could be made that would be similar, would be if someone who was Bisexual chose to only live a same sex lifestyle. I suspect that this is also rare, because of the discrimination.

Just to be as clear as possible, I believe:

There is nothing unethical about a Gay lifestyle between consenting adults.

Gay people do not choose to be Gay.
Straight people do not choose to be Straight.
Bisexual people do not choose to be Bisexual.

The lifestyle they choose does not change their orientation.

Last edited by Rocky on 24 May 2012, 5:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

And maybe also people who say they're straight but aren't or are borderline cases. For those folks (I'm thinking of George Rekkers (sp?)) it may actually be a choice and the problem is that they're over-extending their personal experience.

You intentionally juxtaposed gay sex with murder, and you could have just as easily used a less derogatory basis for comparison. I think it was deliberate, and I don't believe your denials.

From my point of view, gay sex and straight sex are both essentially "ugly" impulses in our psyche. Covenant marriage, whether or not the state recognizes it, gives us someone we truly trust that we can share things about ourselves with, including the uglier side of us, and then it's okay because we never share it with anyone else. Because we can share this, we can also share each other's pain, sorrow and anger. Love means that you have someone you can be ugly around, and it's okay. It's okay because that person understands you, and that person forgives you for being ugly.

What you are doing is making gay sex all about the ugly aspects of it. You are making it all about the dirty things that two people of the same sex might do. The right way to see it is that we acknowledge that any kind of sex is a dirty and ugly thing, but what makes the difference is having someone in your life who knows enough about your demons to condemn you and knows enough about your spirit to forgive you. For gay men, women just can't fill that role. There is more to being gay than just craving the flesh of someone of the same sex. The need, if it is truly a need, is in the spirit.

And the fact of the matter is that you can't just pretend that these needs aren't there. No matter how hard you try, no matter how much you pray, you go through life with an incomplete soul if you aren't getting it. Trying to replace it with some substitute only makes it worse.

Do you even realize how cruel it is to make a gay man develop an emotional attachment to a woman, when he could never give her what she rightfully deserves? You cannot imagine how it would destroy you. When gay men force themselves to develop attachments to women, the love is real. They are willing to die for them. But there is something in it that they cannot provide. It just doesn't work, and it destroys a man. I doubt lesbians have it much better.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but there are a range of things that people do that are based on emotions that they are predisposed to. I'm not the one making a case for whether these feelings are "right" or "wrong." I'm just making the case that people's responses to those feelings aren't by necessity affirmative responses. A violent person can learn to control his temper. Someone who feels an unwanted attraction to the same sex CAN choose an alternative to active or open homosexuality.


I understand all that, and I'm not disputing what marriage is vs. what it should be. And I'm not all that concerned about sex, either. We just had our third child 6 weeks ago, so it's been nearly 3 months since we had sex last. After our second child, we went really a year and a half before we were even remotely interested in having sex. Pretty much our relationship is little more than two best friends/roommates who happen to share a house with three kids. Marriage can often be a business arrangement, and it can be just a couple of buddies playing video games. It can be just a big pain in the @$$. Most of our experience has little to do with what goes on the bedroom. Maybe we agree on some things that marriage is. But discussing marriage isn't really what this thread is about.


I never brought up sex, actually... You just jumped to that conclusion. What I brought up was same-sex attraction. I didn't assume that meant sex. People tend not to end up with romantic interests they find unattractive, and attraction doesn't necessarily entail physical traits exclusively. I've been with overweight women I found physically attractive, and I've known women who didn't have any physically attractive features but did have magnetic personalities that I couldn't help but love. Homosexuals distinctly have a preference for the same sex. For some people, a same-sex attraction is unwanted. I don't think that people who feel unwanted attraction should be made to feel that giving into those feelings is the only option they have. If that's what they WANT, fine. But it isn't the ONLY way.


No, I'm really not. Can people choose to act on same-sex attraction or not? So far the consensus seems to suggest that they can.


Waaaaiiiiiit a minute.... Let's look at that again...

If that is true, then why does it matter what someone's gender is? Why bother with a romantic relationship? College fraternities serve the same function--the only difference being the nature of the physical relationship. In a fraternity, or even something like the Freemasons, there is really only the lack of the physical relationship while celebrating common bonds. Fraternities and religious organizations serve to fill the same need of the spirit, and it's not necessary to be involved in any kind of one-on-one relationship, whether gay or straight.

I mean, everything you've said right there involves some role or function many of us find in organized religion. It's not my purpose in this thread to argue merits or morality of homosexuality. But this really stood out to me as a huge flaw in reasoning.

You do understand that is a chauvinistic attitude, right?


Not necessarily. Someone dealing with unwanted same-sex attraction might be happier if they know their feelings are normal and natural and can be coped with without accepting the gay lifestyle for themselves. There are several ex-gays out there who would argue that their souls are just as complete if not more so than they were. They might even say that homosexuality was actually the substitute for what they really needed.


How do you know he couldn't? And, btw, you can't MAKE anyone develop an emotional attachment, right? Whether an ex-gay allows himself to develop an emotional attachment to someone of the opposite sex is his personal choice. Remember, groups that work to support ex-gays do not claim to "cure" homosexuality. These are things they have to face every day for the rest of their lives, and I don't imagine for a second that the decision to seek a mate from the opposite sex is an easy one. And what, exactly, are we talking about that a woman rightfully deserves? A physical relationship or a spiritual relationship? Both? Something else? I'm not sure I understand why gender has to make a difference. A purely "spiritual" relationship doesn't really require one or the other.


But people who are struggling with unwanted attractions find that giving in to those feelings are even more destructive. If they don't WANT to accept that about themselves, don't they deserve to seek compassion and understanding outside the gay community? People do make those kinds of choices.

And I'm not saying they choose their orientation or predispositions. It's a lifestyle choice.

I often see the question relating to people choosing to be gay:

"Why would anyone choose to be gay?"

How about a similar question:

Why would anyone choose to smoke? Look at all the discrimination that smokers get. Does that mean smoking is not a choice? I don't think so.

I don't believe being gay is a choice, but don't think the above argument is a good one against it being one.

I'm gay but I didn't choose to be. Just the throw of the dice.

Pure nonsense.

How exactly does pointing out the obvious truth that being gay is not a choice "play into the hands of homophobes"? Homophobes hate gays whether they choice it or not.

First its not the "your brain is a representation of your personality"- its that your personality is influenced by your brain.


Second what you're saying is like saying "we should claim that being Black is a CHOICE, because if we go around saying 'being Black is NOT a choice' then it plays into the hands of racists.".

It is not either or.

Its both a civil liberties issue ( like freedom of religion), and an issue of descrimination against people with ascriptive characteristics ( traits that they have no choice in like age, gender, and race).

But it is more the latter because even if you're born into a particular religion you have the volition when you rach adulthood to choose to stay in that religion. You dont have the freedom to not be gay if you're born gay.

I made the choice to be in a relationship with my girlfriend, but I have no control over my being attracted to her. I don't call myself a lesbian,(5 on the Kinsey Scale) but I've always been around or a part of the gay community, since before I knew wat gay meant. I have pretty strong feelings about "ex-gay" bullcrap. It makes me sick that there is such a strong anti-gay sentiment throughout society, because it contributes to low self-esteem and self-loathing in lots of gay people, it's hard enough not to fit in or be "normal" as it is.

Years ago one of my best friends killed himself about a year after he came out. His parents forced him to move into their pool house because they didn't want him in their house. His four older brothers and sisters all refused to speak to him or see him anymore. Someone at his school found out through his cousin and he lost his friends, and suffered harassment frequently. Adding to that members and leaders in the religious community and church he grew up in pressured he and his family to get him "help" in the form of therapy meant to help him live a lie and deny himself the possibility of love.

He had once felt love and support from these people, and because of him being gay he saw that not even his mother loved him unconditionally. And the world didn't look any better, with gays being harassed and assaulted on a regular basis, some murdered, seeing a news story about a gay man being beaten to death because he's gay doesn't inspire a lot of hope.

In his last letter to me he said that he could face a life of being a societal outcast and he could deal with knowing some people want to hurt people like him, but he couldn't handle living a life in which he has to choose either denying himself happiness and love, or losing the love of his parents and family, which he had realized might never be what he thought it was again even if he bent to the will of others.

I received the letter in the mail the day he killed himself. I called his mom and she said he was in class, I told her to check and be sure and she wouldn't until I screamed at her that he was intending to kill himself. It was too late. Months later she cried to me about how if he'd been living in the house there is no way she wouldn't have noticed he wasn't in class and she believed she would've found him in time and he wouldn't be dead. I let myself say something I believed to be true(still do) though it was harsh. I said if she'd have stopped him that morning he would have just been more careful the next time, because the real problem was that her family and she herself had denied him their love and acceptance, and that I hoped that losing her son would open her eyes a little.

My friend Talib killed himself and while he didn't tell anyone why in his suicide note, I know he'd been struggling with knowing his very strict Muslim family would cut off all ties if they found out he was gay and he didn't think he could live in the closet forever. It was killing him inside.

My friend Justin came out to his parents and they told him he was better off dead than gay and he was not their son anymore. He shot himself a week later.

My friend's uncle was an "ex-gay" and married to a woman, killed himself because he couldn't do it, he couldn't be heterosexual.

The list goes on.

What is it for? What value is there in believing homosexuality is vile and disgusting? There is no good reason for anti-gay activism, if it's something that bothers people then they shouldn't engage in it or fantasize about what people in gay relationships are doing in their bedrooms. Trying to make people be straight is unecessary, as us being gay doesn't force you to join us. We don't even want you to join us, we would prefer you leave us alone.

Didn't Lady Gaga conclusively prove gay people are "Born This Way"?

But what about those who feel just as strongly that homosexuality IS aberrant, do not wish to be engage in homosexual behavior on any level, and desperately want those feelings and attractions to just go away?

We seem to like picking on Christianity here, so let's go with that. Let's say a Christian is "born again," loves Jesus, and understands that homosexuality is an unacceptable behavior as per Biblical teaching. Now suppose that the same Christian has struggled most of his meaningful life with what he feels are confusing feelings of intense attraction to the same sex--we'll just say other men. He doesn't want to give up his religion, but at the same time he firmly believes that what his feelings urge him to do is wrong.

Christians believe that if they possess a genuine faith and received and accepted God's grace, God will not lead them into any temptation they cannot withstand. So what does it mean if this person feels that the temptation towards homosexuality is irresistible? It would appear to that person that he is not saved after all and he might even begin to feel his life is worthless; he might even be suicidal. And even if he were to accept those feelings and "come out," he'd still have to deal with the negative emotions that what he's doing is wrong.

My view of temptation is this: As a Christian, I personally don't see anything wrong with light or moderate alcohol use. But if I were an alcoholic, the urge to drink might seem to me an irresistible temptation. So for me, knowing God won't send any temptation my way, it might be best to get rid of any alcohol at home. What this means is that if I can't handle the temptation, God isn't going to fill all my cabinets with alcohol. But neither is God going to stop me if I make a conscious, deliberate decision to go inside a liquor store and stock up if I really want to do that.

While I understand alcoholism and homosexuality are NOT the same thing, you do need to understand that for some people who do have unwanted attraction, giving in to that temptation, especially as a Christian believer, is an undesirable decision they'd prefer to avoid.

What ends up happening is many people with unwanted same-sex attraction find the compassion and support they need in the gay community. This can be potentially psychologically damaging IF that person never really wanted to be a part of it in the first place but was led to believe he didn't really have a choice.

In response to some of the case studies you provided:

When you bring religion into the mix, especially Christianity and others with prohibitions against homosexuality, what you often find are people completely unprepared for the reality that there are things out there that appear to contradict or oppose what we believe. Look at it from the other pov. You grow up your whole life being told that something is wrong, yet you find yourself dealing with someone who finds sinful tendencies to be grossly overwhelming. If you've never encountered that before, it's difficult to know what to say. The automatic response is the obvious one, that behavior X (doesn't matter what it is) is wrong and maybe you need to get saved. Maybe that's true; maybe it's not.

But the real tragedy is instead of getting what they really need, people struggling with unwanted same-sex attraction are confronted with all these negatives, things that they've all heard before anyway and which won't help at all. The gay community is populated with those who have been there before and understand what it is like, so it's easier to seek shelter in that community rather than a religious community that just thinks something is wrong with you.

And that is a real shame, because ALL Christians struggle in one way or another, with perhaps hypocrisy being the #1 aberrant tendency. All these struggles can be overcome by 1) faith and 2) putting Christ's teachings into practice. A hypocrite doesn't want anybody's compassion, but they nonetheless need help in their lives. A patient brother willing to guide them into understanding their own helplessness in the face of the helplessness of others can certainly go a long way to help a hypocrite tear down the façade of condemnation. I personally don't feel like I have much left to work on, but I'm reminded every day that I'm still a work in progress. The more Christians and "religious people" come to understand that, the more compassion you'll see from them. I'll at least try to work on them if you'll try not to condemn me for being what I am.

Anyway, I'd want to ask that person struggling with unwanted feelings what he really wants to do, and I mean REALLY, and if he says he believes the Bible and doesn't want that for his life, I'd offer to help in any way I possibly could. He already knows what the Bible says, so beating him up with Biblical conduct rules won't really fix the problem. I would hope that I would show enough compassion to give a listening ear FIRST and let him talk out whatever he needs to talk out. I would also hope I could find others who could join me in being supportive. But most importantly, I'd want to find someone who can do something I can't do, and that is actually speak from experience, someone who has actually dealt with these kinds of things himself and chose an alternative to a life of active homosexuality.

Notice I never said a word about "finding a cure." There are many so-called "ex-gays" who will tell you outright that there is no cure, that the feelings they have to deal with never go away. There are groups of "ex-gays," some of them even Christian, who purpose themselves to providing a compassionate community to help those who are struggling with unwanted feelings. While it is certainly not a "cure," it is a viable alternative for those who do not wish to just give in to the gay community. Encouraging someone to "be gay" when that is not what they want can be just as cruel and damaging as throwing someone out on the street for wanting to engage in that behavior. You have to look at it from the perspective of someone who may not want to be a part of the gay lifestyle.

You might claim not to make the case for whether "these feelings are 'right' or 'wrong'," but that case is embedded within what you say. There are antisocial and destructive behaviours from which we rightly refrain because of their destructive nature. To uncritically place homosexuality in an analagous category is to invite the inference that you intend homosexuality to be understood as antisocial or destructive, in kind.

I believe that you are being wantonly disingenuous when you create that framework and then claim to have had no intention to create the inferences that flow naturally from it. I thought you better than that.

Let's take out all your references to murder and replace them with paedophilia. Now, at least, we are dealing with an analogy between two sexual orientations. Can your analogy stand up to the same scrutiny now?

The suppression of a sexual orientation towards children is ethically proper in my view, because children can never develop the capacity to consent to sexual behaviour. The same cannot be said for members of one's same sex.



Again with the disingenuousness. You're using an enormously broad brush here. If we are talking about controlling our sexual behaviour in a mature, respectful fashion, I wouldn't argue with you. But if we are talking about chastity and celibacy then I think we are in a very different field. After all, masturbation is still an expression of one's sexual attraction.



Nonsense. There is nothing in the least chauvinistic about restricting your choice of spouse based on your sexual orientation. Sex in an integral part of marriage, and of any marriage-like relationship. Indeed, from a legal perspective, sexual intercourse is an essential component of marriage, and the wilful refusal to consummate a marriage renders it voidable at Common Law.

Now that's not to say that sex-less marriages don't exist--of course they do. And it's not to say that sexuality is consistent during the life of a marriage--it would be foolish to so suppose. But one of the primary reasons that we form pair-bonds is sexual, and you cannot pretend that non-sexual relationships can be uncritically equated with sexual ones.



They might also say that the moon was made of green cheese, but that would not make it so. I, of course, cannot comment about their sexuality or how they have reconciled their sexuality with the teachings that they have chosen in preference to their inherent sexuality. But neither can you. Neither these people, nor I, nor you, nor anyone stands as proof of any proposition.

Let's go back a step. Why are we supposing that that attraction is unwanted? Let's imagine a circumstance in which an adolescent has not been bombarded with messages that demonize same sex attraction. Why, then, would same-sex attraction be any more unwanted than opposite sex attraction?



Because he tells me so, of course. How else would I know? And I, for one, am not rude enough to doubt his honesty when he tells me so. Or are you simply being disingenuous again?



I beg to differ. My relationships with men and my relationships with women are fundamentally different--and this applies equally to the vast majority of people with whom I am not having a sexual relationship. The sex of a person matters--and it matters far more than their sexuality.



I don't disagree that there are those who do. But I think that still leaves open the question about which is the more disordered choice: to align one's lifestyle with one's sexual orientation, or to align one's lifestyle with social norms that seek to suppress one's sexual orientation?

I am pretty firmly of the view that any attempt to suppress one's sexual orientation is inherently ego-dystonic and fundamentally disordered.

It follows that this is only justified where the sexual orientation in question presents a more profound disorder than the supression would. Certainly paedophilia is such a case. Some sexual compulsive disorders would likely qualify, but I am less likely to take a generalize clinical view of those.

But the clinical cases where suppression of a same-sex orientation is justified as the less disordered of two clinical cases is, I suggest, very much the exceptional case--and very likely indicative of an environment which is fundamentally disordered in the first place.

And I'm trying to tell you, from first-hand experience, that trying to do so is NOT healthy. What part of this is not registering with you? If somebody is gay, the first line of attack for addressing it ought to be getting that person to accept being gay. It's the only thing we know that works.

If you are a gay man, that does not last. By the time you get to about early middle-age, you start feeling something missing in your life. You become moody, anxious and depressed. It's very destructive, and I have had to clean up after it.

My first SO had started taking long walks just to clear his head. Sometimes, he would just get in his car and drive out of town for a weekend, so he could sleep alone in a hotel room. I think he tried using porn as an outlet, but I'm not sure. His wife started making accusations.

They tried seeing therapists, and they even tried seeing hypnotherapists, even though he thought it was hokey. They tried medications. They tried taking cruises with their two children. They tried everything. The thing is, there was only so long it could last.

I think the only reason he was holding up the pretense was for his father's sake. His father was a tough guy bred in the back streets of New York, back when it was so corrupted and dirty that you could really could trust the Italian Mafia more than you could trust the "legitimate" government. Anyway, my first SO always talked about him with a modicum of reverence and keeps a portrait of him in the store he owns and works at. Anyway, it was after his father died that he finally started talking to his wife about his sexuality. He was so guilt-ridden over it, he stays in debt paying the alimony.

He suffered from severe insomnia. When I first started talking to him online, his typing was riddled with spelling errors. He would start saying something, and it would get jumbled. Eventually, everything he typed would be pure nonsense, and I got to where I would start calling him on the phone and begging him to try to get some rest. This intensified when he admitted to me that he was falling asleep at the wheel frequently on his way to work. I think that one of the main reasons I even pursued the relationship was that I was afraid that he wouldn't sleep at all if I weren't there to tell him to get to bed, and he had two children he still needed to care for. Unlike most fathers after divorce, he put just as much time and energy into raising his children as he did when he lived in the same house.

You are counting on me being ignorant on this subject. It's not that simple. It is never that simple.

It's a consequential aspect of the discussion. If a gay man tries to get married and tries to ignore his needs, it eventually starts to wear on him. It's just not healthy.

They have a right to know that they can't just "pray the gay away," and they have a right to know that accepting themselves is ultimately better for them.

And it's not even about whether or not they choose to have sex. It's about whether or not they can look themselves in the mirror and say, "I'm not living a lie." The only thing that works, in the long-term, is for them to come out, at least to themselves, and acknowledge that being gay is just how they were made, and it's okay. It's not some illness. It's not catching. It is just a weird consequence of some combination of otherwise helpful genes and whatever their mothers were eating while they were in the uterus. They can still be contributing and helpful members of their family, community, country, and world in general. With the help of a surrogate, they can even have children, and they have a lot of different ways they can express their sexuality. However, it is necessary, for a gay man's health, to be at peace with himself.

There are various mods who otherwise appreciate the content I can contribute who would be highly annoyed if I were to rise to that bait, and I'm not going to do it. However, I regard it as flame-bait, for future reference. Thank you.
Because I have had them as lovers. If the man is truly gay, not bisexual, it always works out the same way. However, even if a man is bisexual, I think he ought to experiment with men at some point in his life. I think it's healthy. In the case of gay men, though, mixed-orientation relationships always go straight to Hell, in one tragic way or another. Do you simply not understand? I am speaking from direct experience, here. It seriously screws them up. When they realize how their problem is affecting their children, gay fathers in this situation can become suicidal, and they can develop a guilt-driven martyr complex. It's very sad.

http://www.josephwinnlicsw.com/id8.html

"Sexuality is much more complex than what one does with one’s genitals. Sexuality is a central component of ones identity and influences how we think about, experience and interact with the world around us. Intimacy and trust compose two of the most important aspects of a committed relationship, and often culminate in the expression of emotional, spiritual and physical connection. These processes allow us to risk being “fully open” and “known” by another. When one feels they must sequester their sexual orientation, a variety of self-destructive behaviors may emerge. These behaviors are often utilized to dull the realization that one does not feel “whole”, or “authentic”. These behaviors often manifest as;
Increased use of drugs and / or alcohol
Avoidance of emotional intimacy with wife
Avoidance of emotional intimacy with friends
Avoidance of emotional intimacy with family
Sexual aversion
Erectile dysfunction
Anorgasmia, the inability to have an orgasm
Becoming hypersexual with women, to “prove” that one is not gay
Engaging in “anonymous” sex with men, to meet “sexual needs”, while having “emotional needs”, met by wife and family”
Somatic complaints, e.g., headaches, body aches, gastrointestinal discomfort
Contempt for “effeminate” gay men
Contempt for “out” gay people
Internalized homophobia
A new sensitivity for the struggles endured by gay people
A refusal to remain silent when confronted by homophobic speech or news
Recognizing the links between homophobia, racism, sexism, and the other “isms”
Depression
Anger
Weight gain
Weight loss
Emotional withdrawal from family
Physical withdrawal from family"

-Joseph Winn MSW, LICSW, CST

It does.

I have proven my point, a thousand times over, that this "gender is only skin-deep" crap is a bunch of nonsense. This is a scientific view, not a political statement. If you can't tell the difference between the two, that is your problem. I would gladly PM you the material that I think supports this theory, but I am not going to have another pointless conversation with someone who chooses to keep his head up his ass when the findings of modern scientific research don't correspond with his ideals or beliefs. If you try to pursue this subject with me, I will simply report you, and it will be the end of our conversation. I just don't think it's fair that I am treated with contempt when I am the only participant in a conversation who is contributing concrete material.

No, what is destructive is allowing your needs to fester until you have been driven to the point of seeking out anonymous sex. If you open up about your sexuality and start trying to address it, in a rational way, you can manage it in a responsible way. The consequences of keeping it secret, though, are dangerous.

You might not understand dissociation, but you really can end up living a double-life, and one feels like a distant dream to the other. It's not quite dissociation on the level of having a "split personality," but it works on the same principle. The longer you let something like this build up, the more the need starts to assert itself in dysfunctional and dangerous ways. How do I know? Because I have SEEN IT FIRST-HAND.

They deserve for someone to tell them the truth. You cannot "pray the gay away," and it's not healthy to try to suppress it.

"Lifestyle choice"?

When I was in the closet, my "lifestyle" consisted of rocking back and forth on the floor, moaning incomprehensibly. I was so withdrawn from society, I didn't even know how to talk with other people conversationally. I had frequent fits of extreme emotional distress in which I occasionally had to be physically restrained. And the stimming was non-stop. My relationship with my family was abusive and occasionally violent. I was heading for the state mental ward. That's not a "lifestyle" at all. It's just waiting to die.

Maybe I'm not exactly the perfect specimen of level-headedness now, but I'm a free an independent man now. I actually have a loving relationship with my family. I have a nephew coming, and I intend to dote on him until my brother is completely and thoroughly nauseated. If you think that I would have been better off on the road I was on, you are insane and horribly ignorant.

Staying in the closet is simply NOT HEALTHY WHATSOEVER.

Last edited by WilliamWDelaney on 25 May 2012, 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

To: Anglrho

What exactly is your point?
You start your post with "but", but then you fail to make any kind of rebuttal in your long post.

you're agreeing with both OP and with Meems that a person "does not choose to be gay".

And you admit that being gay is incurable.

Thats it. Thats the bottom line.
Those two points.

The rest of what you're saying is off topic.
So why keep talking?

But lets go into this off topic stuff anyway

What have you actually said?

If you're a person with homosexual urges and inclination you can enroll in church based "ex gay programs" which even you admit are all a farce and a charade and essentially dont do anything.

But you advocate these programs at length anyway.
Apparently this is your point: you dont have to commit suicide. There is an alternative. The alternative to suicide is celibacy.

If you're gay- you can either act on being gay- or you can get massive counselling to be celibate ( like a hetereosexual who joins a monastary). Celibacy is a more acceptible form of sexual deviancy than homosexuallity so thats what the chuch can and will encourage you to go for.

Thats what your post boils down to.
And its all fine and dandy.

The bible says its a sin to eat shellfish. So maybe I can get massive counselling to become an "ex seafood eater"too.

But you never deny that being gay is innate nor do you deny that it is incurable.
So why exactly are you arguing with people whom you agree with?

Nope. Even if you are being truthful when you say that you have never even had sex with anybody, they know that you are gay, and you still get crapped on for it. It doesn't have anything to do with your actions, and it never did. I actually got a lot more respect from people when I came out of the closet: when you say "I am gay," it means, "I have the ACLU and Lambda Legal on speed-dial." If you are closeted, you are a defenseless victim who can be pretty much abused at will, and it is a widely circulated by no less false myth that people can't tell. If they are looking for it, they can. The ones who are looking for it are usually the ones who are the most determined to beat you down. This is reality. Being in the closet is not an option for most people.

Last edited by WilliamWDelaney on 25 May 2012, 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It's disheartening to me that discussing emotional controversial topics too often seem to boil down to these kinds of anti-intellectual attacks. I never said they were farces or charades or that they don't do anything. Let the straw man attacks begin!


They are effective at helping people cope with unwanted same-sex attraction.


Is suicide the only other alternative? I'm only pointing to one possible alternative that I'm aware of. I'm not aware of any others, but I don't doubt the possibility that there could be. Perhaps no one has taken the time to explore other possibilities? I dunno... But it seems clear to me that you've missed my point, and judging from everything else you've said it seems to me you've done so deliberately. And so it goes for much of everything else you've mentioned.


No. My post boils down to available choices that do not involve living a gay lifestyle. I merely expressed one alternative. If alternatives exist, you can't say that living a gay lifestyle is something you have no choice over.


Actually, dietary laws in the OT are there to strictly highlight Hebraic culture identity in such a way to set them apart from other people. You might need some help if you wanted to convert to Judaism, though. Christians don't care what you eat.


I'm disagreeing with the idea that the gay lifestyle is the only direction someone with unwanted same-sex attraction can go. It's just as cruel to suggest that someone who doesn't want to be gay still has to accept homosexuality as their way of life if they're struggling with unwanted attraction. I would think the gay community would understand more than anyone how destructive it could be to compel someone to be something they either are not or do not wish to be.

My contention is that someone who becomes an "ex-gay" might find that to be actually more beneficial than remaining an active homosexual if they do not want to be an active homosexual.

@WilliamWDelaney: I'll try to get back to you, but I found your quotes to be a little difficult to follow. I'd love to respond, though, and if it takes some time it's not that I'm ignoring you.