Culturally acceptable child abuse?

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There is a difference between insisting that a child attend a church and insisting that he/she believe what is preached there. It is not impossible to seperate the two.

The problem start when the parents insist the child attends a church/mosque/temple because whether the child believes or not he is forced to participate in the singing and praying. Do you know what it is like being an atheist and forced to give praise aloud to a god you don't believe exists? The child either becomes a hypocrite to himself and despises what he/she is being forced to do and those doing the forcing or he/she doesn't participate in the activity - and faces ostracism or worse from his/her peers. It is bullying. Nothing less. In my case I was physically beaten for refusing to pray aloud.

Says who?
I think your church experiences have been quite different from mine. I have many times gone to church and remained silent during the parts I did not feel comfortable repeating. I also have stayed in my seat during communion. I'm not sure anyone noticed, let alone cared. I would never ask my child to say anything that they felt was untrue.

A lot of people don't make the responses at Mass, even if they do believe. Back when I was pretty devoutely Catholic and went to Mass a lot, I didn't always say anything out loud (unless it was a small daily Mass with only a handful of people there because then it's noticable). I also rarely sing because I'm so off key that I'll throw the person next to me off key.

I wouldn't think that anyone would even think to check if you are saying anything out loud, as long as you look like you are paying attention, which really is simply polite when you go anywhere that there is a speaker.

Really the only thing anybody would be truly expected to participate in is the "sign of peace" where you shake a neighbors hand. Even then, you could bend down to tie your shoe, or drop your program or something so you don't have to.

To be honest, I never even checked or noticed whether my kids made the responses or not, or even bowed their heads.

If the kid honestly doesn't give a damn about religion then they are less likely to have no problem with the hypocrisy of attending church; but if you force a firm non-believer to attend it is at the very least uncomfortable for them and at worst could stir up a considerable amount of antagonism with them.

Let me put it this way; I assume you are a Christian, so how would you feel if someone in authority decreed that you must attend a Muslim mosque every week and while you are not obliged to pray to Allah you must sit there for an hour or two every week for several years and listen to the service and verses of the Koran being spoken by an Imman. You must listen while he lectures you and tells you pray to Allah five times a day or you are going to a fiery hell - you are not allowed to argue or debate this. Would you be compliant with the authority that decreed this or would you resist?

Some dhimmis would be quite happy with this. Perhaps they should go the whole hog and buy themselves niqab for the ladies (I believe they're quite fashionable these days - just imagine them on the catwalk!) and thobe with keffiyeh for the men.

I find it quite amazing that this wilful ignorance is so strong in America. I can understand it happening in fundamentalist Islamic countries or deepest Africa, but in America of all places? No wonder America is slipping behind the rest of the world in all areas of science and technology.

They're quite deranged and demented. Some areas of the U.S. seem unutterably backward and intolerant. Jesus Camp, anyone? I bet Jesus himself would be horrified at the antics of these religion-addled maniacs.

A strong emphasis on military spending is a common theme in many third world countries. America's military budget is enormous - and one has to wonder exactly who they're planning on fighting with it. I suspect military spending and religious fundamentalism are closely tied together - the most effective way to counter reason is with force and threats, and that's what every religion is really about in the end.

Honestly? I wouldn't care. If I don't believe it and I am confident in my beliefs, then it wouldn't bother me. I have gone to services outside of my faith. My children attended a Catholic School for years and we are not Catholic and the Catholic Church teaches many things I do not believe. In school the kids went to mass. I instructed them to make the sign of the cross (it has no meaning to us, but it is polite in a Catholic house of worship, so what difference does it make?) and I instructed them to listen politely and not question. There were quite a few Muslim students who also attended this school, because being in an inner city neighborhood, quality education was hard to come by. I asked some of the Muslim parents how they felt about their children learning about Catholicism and they said they'd rather them learn that than the violent, amoral behaviors they would pick up in the public schools.

It is possible my kids may one day attend Jewish summer camp. I do not find anything at all offensive about learning about other cultures and other religions.

To be honest, I have never understood why so many atheists are so ANTI-religion. So, you don't believe? Why try to push that on others? Why do you care if my kid prays in school? It should be inconsequential to you if you are secure in your own belief. Who cares if there is a cross on public property? If it means nothing to you, then it is simply a piece of art that you do not appreciate. If Jews wanted to put a statue of a menorah in a public place, I would not mind. If Muslims wanted to put a statue of a crescent moon and star on public property, I would not care. If Buddhists wanted to put a big giant Buddha in the middle of the town square, I would not mind. If Wiccans wanted to erect a statue of a pentagram, I'd say great! Have at it!

Having my beliefs does not make me ANTI other people's beliefs. Let them have them. It is of no consequence to me what other people believe. And if my kids are exposed to it, who cares? How is exposing them to the beliefs of others harmful?

All that being said, Tallyman, I do have a huge problem with the fact that you were physically abused for not singing or joining in prayers. That is simply wrong. Although I know you do not believe in God, He would say that you should sing if you feel like singing, or be silent if you feel like being silent. I think that what happened to you is due to the wickedness of man, not due to God.

You're going "la la la" aren't you?

You don't get a choice - that's his point. You're not answering his question, you're answering a different one.

He's not asking if you mind going to churches or temples or mosques to find out about other religious traditions, he's asking if you would resent or resist being forced into going to a place of worship you don't like or believe in every week. I sure as hell wouldn't and I'd resist it.

Um...no...because I would never perceive it as being "forced." Not unless there was a literal gun to my head.

Perception plays a huge role in things like this. We all are "forced" to do things that we don't want to do. We can either resist it, or we can identify those times when it really doesn't need to be such a big deal and just go along with it.

I am just saying that if we were taken over by space aliens next week and they forced us to go to Alacazoo services to pray to Jiminibee, I would not get bent out of shape over it. I am a Christian and I believe in God and pretending to pray to Jiminibee would be about as meaningful to me as singing along to a song on my car radio.

The point he's making is that how would you feel if you weren't allowed to opt out, and that you would be punished for doing so? That is what is meant by 'forced'.

Yes, and I am saying I would not perceive not being allowed to opt out as being "forced" the way he means it. I would just see it as something I have to do. Though I am 100% opposed to the idea that he got punished for what I consider to be respectfully sitting there in silence as someone else observed their religious rituals.

I would imagine if he would have been allowed to sit there in silence with no one objecting or making an issue of it, he would have a different perspective. I think it is the brutal force that he was subjected to for his non-participation that is what is most problematic.

But I could be wrong on that.

This situation could be a comedy if it were a movie, but as a documentary it is a horror movie. The irrationality of this "controversy" is so outrageous I frequently feel as if I am living in The Twilight Zone. It's just as crazy as arguing with people over whether or not the earth is flat, or whether or not gravity exists. I've personally encountered so many people who are so incredibly misinformed about the subject of evolution that it just blows my mind how there can be so many lies told and believed by so many people.

Many of those who deny the reality of evolution claim to be super patriots too. They apparently don't realize they are destroying America's competitiveness on the global market by sabotaging the science education of our children. These same idiots frequently make the claim that America was founded as a Christian nation too. As I understand it, from the documents I've seen, our Founding Fathers made it quite clear this was to be a secular society. Also, many of the most famous Founding Fathers were apparently Deists, not Christians, so when they said "God" it meant something quite different from what a Christian means by "God."

A secular society does not mean one with no religion. It means freedom to pursue your own religion, or no religion, without having any particular religion forced upon you by society or the government.

One could argue that being forced to send one's child to public school is state mandated child abuse. The public schools in the U.S. are illiteracy mills.

ruveyn