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Do we have any muslim members or lurkers here?

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Tequila
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07 Sep 2012, 9:25 am

meems wrote:
My family members and friends who are Muslim do take some of the Qu'ran seriously, but only about as seriously as your average hald-assed Christian takes the Bible. They just want to get along in society without fear that someone is going to knife their stepdaughter because he heard him speaking Arabic and his wife covers her hair.


They sound like reasonable people - the sort of people we want, more or less. I quite like some forms of hijab myself - I find it kinda sexy.

A lot of Muslims here actually do behave like they're in the desert though - niqabs, denial of education to women, the lot. They actually get special treatment over non-Muslims in some cases, which really does grate on the native population. But really it's the fault of the politicians for allowing the obnoxious community leaders and imams (as well as their cheerleaders on the left) to get away with this.

meems wrote:
We aren't responsible for how people around the world act.


No, and no-one should hold all Muslims responsible for violent thugs, bigots and crazies. It's a much bigger problem in Europe than in the U.S., though. If you go to parts of England, you'd actually think you were in Pakistan or in Turkey or the Middle East in Dutch, Belgian and German cities. They've basically told them that they can behave how they do at home.

meems wrote:
Anyone should wish to end violence and oppression etc but what can we really do about some cave dwelling scavengers?


Restricting immigration and assimilating the ones we do have would be a good start.



Last edited by Tequila on 07 Sep 2012, 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
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07 Sep 2012, 9:28 am

Mike_Garrick wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Mike_Garrick wrote:
[
Its on every bill in your pocket "In god we trust"

That aside this conversation is not relevant to this thread and should be moved to another.


"In God We Trust" has only been a motto since the Civil War. Originally the Motto of the U.S. was E Pluribus Unim. Out of many, one.

ruveyn

So your saying that the fact that Christianity has only become embedded in our politics relatively recently makes it ok?


It surely is not O.K. by me. I would like to see religion and civil governance totally separated. Government should be religion neutral. Neither for nor against a religion. Unfortunately the very reactionary Republicans have made an issue of religion. I am not happy with that. It makes my voting choices difficult. I certainly do not favor pinko stinko commie loving left leaning liberals, but I also barf and wretch at the Republicans who flout their religion in the public political domain. I find American politics an abomination and totally Unclean.

ruveyn



Tequila
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07 Sep 2012, 9:29 am

ruveyn wrote:
It surely is not O.K. by me.


Precisely. In the political arena, you can take your religious dogma up your arse. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Sikhism, Buddhism et al. I don't want it to corrupt the political process, thanks.



Mike_Garrick
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07 Sep 2012, 9:34 am

Then we are in agreement that Americans have little room to criticize others for allowing religion to effect their government or to impose itself on those who don't care to have it imposed.



ruveyn
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07 Sep 2012, 10:04 am

Mike_Garrick wrote:
Then we are in agreement that Americans have little room to criticize others for allowing religion to effect their government or to impose itself on those who don't care to have it imposed.


We have every right to criticize countries where one religion is favored legally(! !) over another and where religious practice is part and parcel of the laws. In the U.S we have the first Amendment. No religion is mandated or forbidden by law. No religious test is administered as a condition for holding office or for voting. Free speech and freedom from religion (in the legal sense) is one of the few areas where the U.S. is light years ahead of much of the world

ruveyn



Mike_Garrick
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07 Sep 2012, 10:11 am

ruveyn wrote:
Mike_Garrick wrote:
Then we are in agreement that Americans have little room to criticize others for allowing religion to effect their government or to impose itself on those who don't care to have it imposed.


We have every right to criticize countries where one religion is favored legally(! !) over another and where religious practice is part and parcel of the laws. In the U.S we have the first Amendment. No religion is mandated or forbidden by law. No religious test is administered as a condition for holding office or for voting. Free speech and freedom from religion (in the legal sense) is one of the few areas where the U.S. is light years ahead of much of the world

ruveyn

No test is administered but if a man was openly atheist he wouldn't take two steps before he lost nearly every voter.
Therefore religion is forced on anyone who wants to be in office.
Consequently it is also forced on everyone in this country because it always has a say in every law.
A key example is Gay rights.
Gay people are not allowed to marry or many times adopt because religious values run our government system.



Tequila
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07 Sep 2012, 10:13 am

Mike_Garrick wrote:
Gay people are not allowed to marry or many times adopt because religious values run our government system.


Hm... not being able to marry versus being stoned to death for being gay. That sure is a toughie.



Mike_Garrick
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07 Sep 2012, 10:16 am

Tequila wrote:
Mike_Garrick wrote:
Gay people are not allowed to marry or many times adopt because religious values run our government system.


Hm... not being able to marry versus being stoned to death for being gay. That sure is a toughie.

Because no one is ever killed or beat within an inch of their life for being gay in America or Britain

Better is not good.



Tequila
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07 Sep 2012, 10:20 am

Mike_Garrick wrote:
Because no one is ever killed or beat within an inch of their life for being gay in America or Britain


The difference is that stonings, hangings, imprisonment and all the rest of it are the norm AND ARE GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED AS LAW in Muslim and numerous Christian countries in Africa, the Middle East and in parts of Asia. Much of the Caribbean is also viscerally homophobic.

Occasionally people are violently assaulted for being gay (or rather, their attackers use their homosexuality as an excuse to attack them), yes, but it's considered a vile and disgusting attack on a defenceless person and the perpetrator(s) are publicly reviled and hopefully are brought to justice. When this does happen, it's usually in places like Northern Ireland and sometimes in Muslim communities.



Last edited by Tequila on 07 Sep 2012, 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mike_Garrick
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07 Sep 2012, 10:42 am

Tequila wrote:
Mike_Garrick wrote:
Because no one is ever killed or beat within an inch of their life for being gay in America or Britain


The difference is that stonings, hangings, imprisonment and all the rest of it are the norm AND ARE GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED AS LAW in Muslim and numerous Christian countries in Africa, the Middle East and in parts of Asia. Much of the Caribbean is also viscerally homophobic.

Occasionally people are violently assaulted for being gay, yes, but it's considered a vile and disgusting attack on a defenceless person and the perpetrator(s) are publicly reviled and hopefully are brought to justice. Actual homophobic murders are very rare here.


Interesting christian countries you say?
So why are you not actively fighting christian values from infiltrating your country?

I'm just going to skip ahead and say, I'm trying to make the point that just because a religion causes something in one country does not necessarily mean it will effect the next in the same way.
There's no real way to know how a British Muslim community would effect long term politics.
Though I doubt it would result in the stoning,hangings and imprisonment of the gay and rape victims.
In fact I would wager that overtime burning a Qur'an would not be any more punishable then burning a bible.
The problem is that doing so now is liable to cause violence and the person burning it knows that.
Therefor are putting people at risk, both Muslim and non alike.


Unfortunately it's not so rare for homophobic assault in America from what I know.
Though it is getting better, slowly.
Certainly not as bad as it was, that could also in part be an effect of peoples attention being focused on things like terrorism though.



Tequila
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07 Sep 2012, 10:47 am

Mike_Garrick wrote:
Interesting christian countries you say?
So why are you not actively fighting christian values from infiltrating your country?


We would certainly fight that kind of extremist and hateful Christianity if it made a resurgence in Britain, yes. Basically, most Brits are agnostic or atheist and the ones that aren't tend to keep themselves to themselves.

Obnoxious religious Christianity has no support apart from the heavily marginalised tiny, tiny minority of extremists, and in general these people are roundly ignored, mocked and laughed at for the pathetic specimens they are. See the offensive wife-beating bully that is Stephen Green for instance. He's hated by nearly everyone apart from his minuscule (probably not even reaching 100) amount of mentally-ill followers.

You must understand that Britain is largely an agnostic country, especially amongst the majority of whites. Elements of the African/Caribbean community, mainly concentrated in London, do hold onto Christianity much more than whites, and the Polish community tends to be a lot more fervent about their Catholicism than most native Brits. However, church attendance has been in decline for decades in this country. Many churches are actually struggling to keep afloat - and they're not hardline fire and brimstone places, but very tame Church of England-type places.



Mike_Garrick
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07 Sep 2012, 11:04 am

Tequila wrote:
Mike_Garrick wrote:
Interesting christian countries you say?
So why are you not actively fighting christian values from infiltrating your country?


We would certainly fight that kind of extremist and hateful Christianity if it made a resurgence in Britain, yes. Basically, most Brits are agnostic or atheist and the ones that aren't tend to keep themselves to themselves.

Obnoxious religious Christianity has no support apart from the heavily marginalised tiny, tiny minority of extremists, and in general these people are roundly ignored, mocked and laughed at for the pathetic specimens they are. See the offensive wife-beating bully that is Stephen Green for instance. He's hated by nearly everyone apart from his minuscule (probably not even reaching 100) amount of mentally-ill followers.

You must understand that Britain is largely an agnostic country, especially amongst the majority of whites. Elements of the African/Caribbean community, mainly concentrated in London, do hold onto Christianity much more than whites, and the Polish community tends to be a lot more fervent about their Catholicism than most native Brits. However, church attendance has been in decline for decades in this country. Many churches are actually struggling to keep afloat - and they're not hardline fire and brimstone places, but very tame Church of England-type places.


I think you might just be shocked by such a passionate religion.
I've seen people who think god cures broken limbs and work themselves into such a state speaking in "tongues" praising and dancing they pass out from the "holy spirit"
I've seen others who will take a bat to a tv if you watch buffy the vampire slayer and then cleanse their house of the evil spirits you might have let in.
One time, someone saw me playing Yu-Gi-oh a card game and thought I had been possessed by the devil and just sent the other kids soul to hell.
Those are tame cases, some people will "exercise evil spirits" to cure gay kids which consists of tying the poor kid down and splashing them with "holy water" which in the worse cases is actually acid.
Clearly that doesn't happen much anymore but it hasn't been long.
That type of religion is already well imbedded here in America so I'm not shocked by it anymore.

It will tone down sooner or later and people will come to their senses one day....hopefully.

But you can't stop an idea from spreading and the more you fight it the stronger it gets.
Trying to fight religion is pointless and the only people who get hurt are the bystanders.
The radicals who you want to stop don't care if they die, they want to die.



Tequila
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07 Sep 2012, 11:07 am

Mike_Garrick wrote:
But you can't stop an idea from spreading and the more you fight it the stronger it gets.


You can prevent them from topping up their often illiterate, unemployable, poorly-educated followers through mass immigration from backward countries. You can encourage integration and genuine tolerance, whilst actually upholding the law. Really, this is all about stamping out bad behaviour and unwarranted privilege and facing down bullies.

Violent Islam in Europe is an imported problem. We have to take steps to integrate those immigrants into our community and make them feel welcome but also by not tolerating any nonsense, by facing down the nonsense cries of "Islamophobia" and "racism" when trying to actually uncover and investigate crimes are committed in its name.

Mike_Garrick wrote:
Trying to fight religion is pointless and the only people who get hurt are the bystanders.


You approve of the Caliphate then?



Mike_Garrick
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07 Sep 2012, 11:22 am

Tequila wrote:
Mike_Garrick wrote:
But you can't stop an idea from spreading and the more you fight it the stronger it gets.


You can prevent them from topping up their often illiterate, unemployable, poorly-educated followers through mass immigration from backward countries. You can encourage integration and genuine tolerance, whilst actually upholding the law. Really, this is all about stamping out bad behaviour and unwarranted privilege and facing down bullies.

Violent Islam in Europe is an imported problem. We have to take steps to integrate those immigrants into our community and make them feel welcome but also by not tolerating any nonsense, by facing down the nonsense cries of "Islamophobia" and "racism" when crimes are committed in its name.

Mike_Garrick wrote:
Trying to fight religion is pointless and the only people who get hurt are the bystanders.


You approve of the Caliphate then?


See that's the thing. You can't especially in this age with the internet.
People are exposed through the news and find more information on the internet.
If what they find is appealing they find more information.
In the end if they are the type to join a radical Islamic group, they will end up doing so through the internet.
This goes for any type of radical group, be it religion, political or cult.

What exactly is the unfair special treatment they get in your opinion?
The right to prey as their religion asks? The right to dress as their religion asks? The right to build a church?


I don't really know enough to approve or disprove of the Caliphate.
It seems as if it at least started with good intentions. Voting for leaders and all.



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07 Sep 2012, 11:14 pm

ruveyn wrote:
meems wrote:
My mother converted to Islam(both my parents were non-religious Jews) and she and her husband are Muslims. Their family is Muslim. They rarely mention god or whatever. My stepfather's entire family that lives in the U.S. and the Muslim community are not part of what a lot of people associate Islam with. None of my Muslim friends harp about religious crap. They are just wanting to live an American life and give their kids more opportunities and a better home.

After 9/11 there was a lot of violence toward some of them, those who were very obviously Muslim. In the apartment complex we lived in before my mother and stepfather started an accounting firm(we were living in a crappy area) a guy saw my sister and I and assumed we were all my stepfather's wives. He pulled a knife on me one night when I was walking to the store. People are ignorant. People are full of hate. People are... people.

Even Muslims are, but no more than any other group. Islam doesn't make people bad, and sorry ruveyn, but not all Muslims buy into the Hadith books, many know it's complete and utter BS.

I'll admit a lot of the comments I see on Muslims here repulse me because of the violence I've encountered, the myriad bigots I've had to deal with and eventually just let it go. That's the attitude I see here, that someone Muslims are set apart and they can't be normal, average people. So they become objects and it becomes OK not to treat them as human etc.

It makes me want to vomit. But like my stepfather's family, I most often try to ignore it and not get upset about it. I had a hard time reading that thread. Not for anger but for sadness.


The assertion that God is God and Mohamud is his Messenger (Rasul-Allah) is from the Q'ran, multiple times. If you are Muslim, I assume you take the Q'ran seriously. Is that right?

ruveyn


That does not mean that we have nothing else to say, Ruveyn.



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08 Sep 2012, 1:58 am

I've known a few Muslim men, only one of them prayed 5 times daily and he was more grounded than a lot of people I know. I think the real difference is whether someone would rather live for something or die for something.