Is Christianity nonsense?

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unduki
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07 Sep 2012, 12:11 pm

I'll just remove myself.

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Vigilans
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07 Sep 2012, 12:15 pm

unduki wrote:

Tequila wrote:

unduki wrote:

Christianity is not nonsense to Christians. Nonsense would be this question.

So then, were you put on the cross last Friday, died and magically come back to life this last Sunday? Strange how this happens to so few people, and there is no documentary evidence.

I think it was someone's idea of a good story that was taken too far.

A story good enough to be housed at the Smithsonian as an historical account. Have you read the Bible?

The Smithsonian also holds copies of many other religious texts. Does that mean they are "historical accounts", or that the Smithsonian collects information for the greater good of human knowledge?

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unduki
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07 Sep 2012, 12:19 pm

I'll just remove myself.

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Tequila
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07 Sep 2012, 12:25 pm

Vigilans wrote:

The Smithsonian also holds copies of many other religious texts. Does that mean they are "historical accounts", or that the Smithsonian collects information for the greater good of human knowledge?

The Smithsonian also says that "it must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. It was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science."

unduki
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07 Sep 2012, 12:43 pm

Tequila wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

The Smithsonian also holds copies of many other religious texts. Does that mean they are "historical accounts", or that the Smithsonian collects information for the greater good of human knowledge?

The Smithsonian also says that "it must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. It was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science."

Yeah, I'm glad you included that word, primarily. It means something...

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Vigilans
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07 Sep 2012, 12:43 pm

unduki wrote:

I think it's extremely short sighted to state that any religion is nonsense. All of the great religions were the first attempts at human governance. With more and more people populating an area, rules were established for peaceful cohabitation. Civilization came into existence through religion and you want to call it nonsense.

This theory of yours is nonsense. What evidence do you have that religion led to civilization? Most serious organized religions and their works only appeared long after the Chalcolithic time period, the time period where cities first started appearing. A much more likely scenario is that with all the extra time people had to themselves with agriculture, and the reliance on natural forces to maintain their food supply, a priest caste gradually appeared to "draw rain" or "drive away pests". Over time the priest caste took power over their civilizations and happily took credit for all the accomplishments humans made

unduki wrote:

The supernatural aspect of Christianity is just that, supernatural. Belief requires faith. If you don't have it, you can't understand. It's that simple.

Why do you think others cannot understand? Perhaps they understand better than you do, and that is why they view faith with contempt

unduki wrote:

Why can't you accept people for who they are and stop trying to change them to fit your mold? I shouldn't have to change who I am just because you are unable to understand.

Who is asking you to change? Furthermore, who throughout history has fought to mold societies according to their viewpoints?

unduki wrote:

And why are you so threatened by Christianity? A religion that exists to celebrate the Love of Christ. Silly humans...

It seems the love of Christ is interpreted by many of your ilk as "those who don't love him are evil" as it has been for a long, long time. Christianity and other irrational belief systems are a threat to modern society. The Bible is a profoundly immoral work of bronze age fiction.

The_Walrus
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07 Sep 2012, 12:44 pm

Vigilans wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Why would he say something like that anyway? What use would it be for the first fifty million years of our existence to know that the world was spherical, not flat?

A better question is "why did he not tell this"? Why not give the whole story? 50 million years is also a stupid figure to use, human history is not nearly that long

The_Walrus wrote:

It's only when we've began to explore space that that has become useful.

Seriously? Do you have any idea how important for navigation this knowledge was? Or for understanding that the Earth is the same as that which exists in space, and not some magical flat expanse surrounded by stars and the sun?

The_Walrus wrote:

We have science to help us with simple empirical facts. God would probably have been more concerned with teaching us about morality and other such things, as rationalism is much less precise.

Actually, rationalism is a better foundation for morality than what some "deity" (aka high priests high on something) would say. Furthermore Abraham's God being considered a source of moral teaching is extremely hilarious. Frankly this "god" taught nothing of value, and is actually profoundly evil

Out by a factor of 100, oops :oops:

Why not tell us the world is spherical? Because there is loads to tell us. I mean, if he had told us the shape of the Earth (actually not a sphere but w/e), then why not the precise size, the location of the Americas and Australia, the distance to the moon, Sun, planets, the size of those bodies, the distance to the second nearest star, galaxy, cluster, etc. Then you could complain that we had been told all these details about astronomy but none about chemistry or medicine or mathematics...

Understanding our position in the cosmos isn't that useful, is it? As for navigation, correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the positions of bodies like the Sun and prominent stars more important, as well as compasses? Even if 17th century navigators relied on the world being spherical, that's only 200 years out- still 498,000 years of it not being useful.

Debatable, if God is capable of accessing "true morality" but humans aren't then that is that. The Old Testament God did give some moral rules that we would consider useful (do not murder), alongside claptrap. The New Testament God mostly gave advice that most people would agree with.

unduki
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07 Sep 2012, 1:04 pm

I'll just remove myself.

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Last edited by unduki on 07 Sep 2012, 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

unduki
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07 Sep 2012, 1:07 pm

I'll just remove myself.

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Fnord
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07 Sep 2012, 1:18 pm

Jitro wrote:

I mean surely if Jesus died for us he would have just committed suicide. No, he was executed.

According to doctrine, He could not 'sacrifice' Himself. Instead, He had to be sacrificed by others.

Personally, I believe that a man named Jesus lived, taught people to "make nice" (or tried to), and upset the religious leaders by pointing out their hypocrisy (in public). The religious leaders then framed Him for crimes He didn't commit to the secular authorities, who in turn executed Him to "keep the peace".

From that point on, I think that some of His fans may have embellished and exaggerated a few details of His life here and there...

Personally, I have no use for religion.

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Vigilans
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07 Sep 2012, 1:22 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

Out by a factor of 100, oops :oops:

The_Walrus wrote:

Why did it not make all this information known to humanity to begin with? Why give blatantly false information to humans... why not stop the persecution of investigative and scientific minds by those high in its hierarchy of faith? Does this being want humans to know the truth about anything?

The_Walrus wrote:

Understanding our position in the cosmos isn't that useful, is it? As for navigation, correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the positions of bodies like the Sun and prominent stars more important, as well as compasses? Even if 17th century navigators relied on the world being spherical, that's only 200 years out- still 498,000 years of it not being useful.

Your opening question actually made me feel sad for a moment or two...

The positions and movements of the bodies and the sun make a lot more sense when you realize you are on an [almost] spherical body. You cannot accurately chart without awareness of this; this awareness led to the creation of the various perspectives available in cartography that do their best to simulate the curvature of the Earth. It allowed the creation of an accurate grid system composed of latitude and longitude lines, which then led to scientific investigation of how to accurately measure latitude and longitude. When you consider that the stars available for viewing are not the same all year round, you realize you can begin to chart your exact location by the time, declination and positioning of the stars.

The_Walrus wrote:

Debatable, if God is capable of accessing "true morality" but humans aren't then that is that. The Old Testament God did give some moral rules that we would consider useful (do not murder), alongside claptrap. The New Testament God mostly gave advice that most people would agree with.

Don't get me started on Job or Sodom and Gomorrah and the story of Lot to name a few that I would consider examples of immorality on the part of whatever this malevolent being that calls itself a god is

Last edited by Vigilans on 07 Sep 2012, 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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07 Sep 2012, 1:35 pm

unduki wrote:

Gosh, Vigilans… you’ve left out the entire Egyptian religion/civilization… As well as the entire continent of South America. Have you studied History much?

Your insolence is appetizing. I'm talking older than Egypt or South America. Have you studied history much? Ever heard of the Chalcolithic that I specifically mentioned?

unduki wrote:

It seems you have interpreted the beliefs and thoughts of others incorrectly to fit your own system of belief. I would call that irrational. I guess that's the human thing to do but I wish you wouldn't prescribe thoughts and actions to me that aren't mine. I don't think you're evil, just ignorant.

I asked you questions and you come back with this persecution complex nonsense

unduki wrote:

But, what do you care what anyone thinks of you for your beliefs? Again, why are you so threatened? You obviously want me to change, or would you prefer I not exist? Because of my beliefs? Christianity is not a threat to modern society, it is society's salvation.

Stop with this obfuscatory BS pseudopsychoanalysis of my motivations and character. I have been asking you questions, answer them, ignore me, but don't start making this personal because you don't like my questions or analyses. I have nothing personal against you. We can move forward amicably if you wish

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07 Sep 2012, 2:28 pm

unduki wrote:

piroflip wrote:

ALL religion is nonesense. If god made the world why didn't he tell his flock that it was round?

He did. Isaiah 40:22 tells us the Earth is a sphere.

No, He didn't; and no, it doesn't.

The Prophet Isaiah wrote:

"It is he who sits above the circle of the Earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in..."

This "circle of the Earth" refers only to the visible horizon of the Earth -- the 2-dimensional circumference of a circle, and not to the 3-dimensional surface area of a sphere.

unduki wrote:

Have you read the Bible?

You may have read the Bible, but is your understanding of the Bible literal or metaphorical?

If literal, then you may be a True Christian.

If metaphorical, then you may not be a True Christian.

Here's an assignment for you: please read 2nd Chronicles 4:2, and then tell me the value of Pi (the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter).

If you say "Exactly 3", then you may be a True Christian, but you are also far from the Truth.

If instead you say, "3.1", "3.14", "3.142", "3.1416", "3.14159", "3.141593", or "3.1415927", then you may not be a True Christian, but you are coming closer to the Truth with each additional digit.

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The_Walrus
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07 Sep 2012, 2:56 pm

Vigilans wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Desperately trying not to resort to "mysterious ways" because I want to make the most of this...

Do you mean "make it so humans are born knowing all this stuff", or "place a giant textbook (of sorts) on Earth for everyone to read"? The former would probably overwhelm newborns, and the latter relies on humanity passing things down accurately and making sure everyone can read this book. We wouldn't have used science to deduce these things so we might not perfect our experimental reasoning. Also, early humans would be like "wtf does "the standard entropy of 2,2-dimethylbut-3-ene is 4560J/mol/K" mean?"- we need to discover this information for it to really mean anything to us.

Quote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Your opening question actually made me feel sad for a moment or two...

I meant in our day to day lives, particularly when we were just cavemen struggling for existence.

Interesting points on using astronomy for navigation, but again, I say this is not something of grave important to humanity until a few hundred years ago, and it has quickly become fairly unimportant now we have simpler, more precise and arguably more accurate methods of navigation.

Quote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Just because a god knows what is morally right doesn't mean it has to behave in a good manner. Obviously it should do, but couldn't god be a hypocrite?

(Just remembered I was meant to be advocating for Christianity rather than Bible-based theism... oops)

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07 Sep 2012, 4:39 pm

walrus, these so called better modes of navigation are hinging on the relative nature of space time to begin with, it is excactly because we understand the cosmos that they work, much of the same canbe said of various physical phenomena, quantum mechanics and mathematics.

to say it isnt important is ridicoulous beyond belief in a modern context.

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07 Sep 2012, 4:58 pm

Oodain wrote:

I didn't say that though, sorry if I wasn't clear. I said we don't need to use the positions of celestial bodies for navigation any more. GPS requires satellites, and I started off by saying "until we wanted to go into space".

The other good method of navigation I was thinking of are highly accurate maps, which don't necessarily need space travel.

(Also, once more I would like to emphasise that I am playing devil's advocate rather than stating my actual beliefs)

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