Feminists whats your opinion on men that have been victims

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08 Sep 2012, 11:11 am

It's a very curious and disturbing thing that comes up time and again - "If we're truly equal, I should be allowed to hit a woman as I (perhaps) would hit a man". Really? That's the first thing that comes to mind when you think of gender equality - "Cool - I can hit women!"?

TM
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08 Sep 2012, 11:25 am

Hopper wrote:

Funnily enough, I said "partner" not "woman", you were the one who assumed I was speaking of a female partner. What is enbodied in the "I should be allowed to hit a woman as I would a man" is "Finally, consequences for actions have universality" as Chomsky said, "In fact, one of the, maybe the most, elementary of moral principles is that of universality, that is, If something's right for me, it's right for you; if it's wrong for you, it's wrong for me. Any moral code that is even worth looking at has that at its core somehow."

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08 Sep 2012, 11:28 am

I don't think anyone should use violence against anyone else unless it's self-defence. This is regardless of gender.

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08 Sep 2012, 12:58 pm

TM wrote:

Hopper wrote:

It was part a response to you, part taking that and talking about something else. What you said reminded me of what I'd heard from others.

From what I understand, most partners of men will be women. What's more, before saying 'partner', you spoke of 'gender equality'. That gives the weight to the validity of my interpretation, that 'partner' here is not being used to indicate indeterminate gender, but to stand in for wife/girlfriend/lover etc.

What is embodied in "I should be allowed to hit a woman as I would a man" is violent misogyny.

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08 Sep 2012, 1:42 pm

Hopper wrote:

TM wrote:

Hopper wrote:

So, you're telling me what I said now? A bit presumptuous quite frankly. "Lover" and "wife" are used among homosexual male couples as well btw. Funnily enough, I don't see any argument against the idea that universality should be the basis for all morality, IE if its right for you its right for me and vice versa.

Also, the statement "I should be allowed to hit a woman as I would a man" was not uttered by me at all I said:

TM wrote:

As a person in favor of complete gender equality, I believe the men who have been victims should have gotten angry and beaten their partner with a phone book. Little known fact, phone books do not leave marks, thus making it very hard to press assault charges.

So, saying its Ok to defend yourself with violence against violence is apparantly violent misogyny to you people. Woman stabs male = Fine. Man restrains woman who is about to stab him = EVIL MISOGYNIST PIGG!! !!

{mod edit: personal attack removed]

Hopper
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08 Sep 2012, 2:06 pm

Right. I'll kindly allow, despite the context that suggested otherwise, you meant 'partner' as someone of either gender. That would still include women.

I didn't know 'wife' was common usage in gay relationships. Granted, 'lover' is itself indeterminate.

Universality will be useful when there is equality. There is not equality. Saying, from within the society we have right now, "I should be allowed to hit a woman as I would a man" (which you didn't outright say, but you did quote approvingly back at me as an example of universal morality) is to be violently misogynistic. Even with a slight disclaimer, saying "when there is true equality, I should be allowed to hit a woman as I would a man" is f*****g weird. In the context, it is not a simple statement, but comes with a hell of a lot of misogyny, as though the speaker can't wait til it's legitimate to start smacking women around if they annoy him - indeed, as though the speaker would get a kick he just can't from hitting men in the same context.

Similarly, those white people who are obsessed with wanting to say 'n*gger'. 'But it's just a word' - well then, why obsess over that word?

Quote:

mod edit: personal attack removed

Yes. Yes we do. And they're f*****g brilliant. Your loss.

Last edited by Hopper on 08 Sep 2012, 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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08 Sep 2012, 2:07 pm

Vigilans wrote:

AspieOtaku wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

You left out a few options, such as "Suck it down you manbitch" and "That's cute when you men try and think and stuff"

Not a good idea those ideas would be deemed sexist and would cause the thread to be locked. I do not condone sexism towards either gender.I have a feeling you must have been joking though.

I think its sexist they were not included!!

*face palm*

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08 Sep 2012, 2:38 pm

Hopper wrote:

Quote:

mod edit: personal attack removed

Yes. Yes we do. And they're f***ing brilliant. Your loss.

Why am I not invited?

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TM
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08 Sep 2012, 2:49 pm

Hopper wrote:

Right. I'll kindly allow, despite the context that suggested otherwise, you meant 'partner' as someone of either gender. That would still include women.

I didn't know 'wife' was common usage in gay relationships. Granted, 'lover' is itself indeterminate.

Universality will be useful when there is equality. There is not equality. Saying, from within the society we have right now, "I should be allowed to hit a woman as I would a man" (which you didn't outright say, but you did quote approvingly back at me as an example of universal morality) is to be violently misogynistic. Even with a slight disclaimer, saying "when there is true equality, I should be allowed to hit a woman as I would a man" is f***ing weird. In the context, it is not a simple statement, but comes with a hell of a lot of misogyny, as though the speaker can't wait til it's legitimate to start smacking women around if they annoy him - indeed, as though the speaker would get a kick he just can't from hitting men in the same context.

Similarly, those white people who are obsessed with wanting to say 'n*gger'. 'But it's just a word' - well then, why obsess over that word?

So in other words, universality being the measure for morality is only applicable when there is equality. So on your words, when there is not perceived equality in a situation or context, morals can bend, become convex, thus make no sense.

Universal morality is the simplest moral system that exists, if its ok for you in X context, its ok for me in X context. Violently misogynistic is a label you put on things, to label a statement that says "If X PERSON (regardless of gender) engages in Act Y, Person Z (Regardless of gender) can do sanction ZX" with rhetoric, used as a domination technique to shame people not to speak against your clouded and delusional belief, where gender is more important than the consequences your actions breed.

The additional baggage you bring into the discussion of interpreting what is in people's heads when they speak, like your Hopper Angel the Mind-Freak, or letting your own subjective bias cloud what you see when you read, is like a Salvador Dali scene, hard to believe.

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08 Sep 2012, 2:52 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:

TM wrote:

mod edit: personal attack removed.

Most of those cases to be honest I believe the man deserved it.They Involved a man who is violent and beat his wife! It may be overboard but I believe the guy in most of those cases deserved it. I would probably join the party in celebration too I suppose.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/1 ... 95771.html

Is the case I was speaking of. Also, why don't you link me some cases where the man deserved it?

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08 Sep 2012, 3:14 pm

TM wrote:

AspieOtaku wrote:

TM wrote:

mod edit: personal attack removed

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/1 ... 95771.html

Is the case I was speaking of. Also, why don't you link me some cases where the man deserved it?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XnuPOk144c[/youtube]Ahh the good ol fashioned Lorena bobbit case. I am not saying all deserved it just most.Lorena Bobbit was driven due to years of abuse.

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08 Sep 2012, 3:34 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:

TM wrote:

AspieOtaku wrote:

TM wrote:

mod edit: personal attack removed

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/1 ... 95771.html

Is the case I was speaking of. Also, why don't you link me some cases where the man deserved it?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XnuPOk144c[/youtube]Ahh the good ol fashioned Lorena bobbit case. I am not saying all deserved it just most.Lorena Bobbit was driven due to years of abuse.

He was never convinced, so I guess the term "deserved" in your case does not mean "convicted by a jury of your peers" or anything of the sorts. In fact he was tried and aquitted of the very crime his wife cited in court as the reason for her cutting him. In fact, on the night when she did it she is quoted as saying "He always have orgasm, and he doesn't wait for me to have orgasm. He's selfish."

Try again, this time without the emotional play.

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08 Sep 2012, 3:38 pm

Really, people?
Feminism =
1.
the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.
3.
feminine character.

Notice there's no superiority mentioned, or hatred of men included in the def...

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08 Sep 2012, 4:51 pm

Something tells me my actual opinion is going to be far less important than the opinion I'm automatically assumed to have if I identify as a "feminist."

:roll:

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08 Sep 2012, 4:53 pm

MjrMajorMajor wrote:

You are right but unfortunately, many perceive it that way, thus coming up with a topic few decide to tackle to try and show a point that feminists arent against men nor advocate abuse towards men either.I also wanted to find out and be sure of this, abuse no matter what gender is abused is wrong and also even though most people turn a blind eye it does happen both ways.

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08 Sep 2012, 4:53 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:

What's your opinion on men traumatized in abusive relationships?

What a bout the menz!!???

What do you expect to be the feminist answer to your question?

TM wrote:

Still not able to remember the two letters in your acronym nickname.

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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 08 Sep 2012, 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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