gay not being a choice and the slippery slope.

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visagrunt
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21 Sep 2012, 12:57 pm

Tequila wrote:

visagrunt wrote:

Criminalization of homosexuality never criminalized homosexuality--it criminalized homosexual acts.

You could say the same about child pornography laws today, though. In practice, the idea is to make it illegal to be attracted to children or to find a way to relieve their desires without harming anyone.

Case in point: if the status of homosexuality and paedophilia were turned around, do you not think that men would now be in trouble for having photos of scantily-clad men or men engaging in sexual acts?

Obviously you'll find this comparison uncomfortable and I'm not suggesting the legalisation of child abuse. I think it would be much better for everyone if paedophiles actually weren't persecuted, TBH.

I think the issue of child pornography is a particularly challenging one, because different legal systems have addressed it different ways.

In Canada, for example, works of original creation, such as stories or drawings are treated differently that material that is created through the exploitation of children in sexual situations. A person who writes a story about child sexuality entirely for his (or her) own use, but never shares it commits no offence in Canada. But I am not at all certain that a similar distinction would exist in other jurisdictions.

And even outside the realm of child pornography, we still have--even in Canada--an ongoing history of inconsistent treatment of material deemed "obscene." Read up on the history of Little Sister's Bookstore for a wander through our checkered legal history.

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LKL
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21 Sep 2012, 1:24 pm

back to the gays: what does it matter if it's voluntary or not? There's nothing wrong with two consenting adults having a responsible and respectful sexual relationship, regardless of their motives.

Tequila
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21 Sep 2012, 1:28 pm

visagrunt wrote:

In Canada, for example, works of original creation, such as stories or drawings are treated differently that material that is created through the exploitation of children in sexual situations. A person who writes a story about child sexuality entirely for his (or her) own use, but never shares it commits no offence in Canada. But I am not at all certain that a similar distinction would exist in other jurisdictions.

Drawings, cartoons and tracings of children in sexual situations are illegal from the moment they are drawn, even if never shown in Britain to anyone else. Yes, I'm that serious.

Looking at cartoon pornography and hentai featuring "children" is illegal as well, as that's considered child pornography. Yes, that's right - looking at dirty cartoons of a teenage girl is illegal.

As for erotic stories, I don't think those are illegal. Yet.

thomas81
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21 Sep 2012, 1:48 pm

Tequila wrote:

Jono wrote:

Two consenting adults having sex does not harm anyone, theft and rape does.

One small problem with that also: paedophilia. A lot of paedophiles don't choose to be the way they are and not all paedophiles harm children, but many do.

The difference with that and homosexuality is that for the most part, homosexuality implies the consent of 2 adults with the maturity to make informed choices about their sexuality.

Tequila
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21 Sep 2012, 1:49 pm

thomas81 wrote:

The difference with that and homosexuality is that for the most part, homosexuality implies the consent of 2 adults with the maturity to make informed choices about their sexuality.

Which I, er, already answered.

Do keep up.

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21 Sep 2012, 1:54 pm

Tequila wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

The difference with that and homosexuality is that for the most part, homosexuality implies the consent of 2 adults with the maturity to make informed choices about their sexuality.

Which I, er, already answered.

Do keep up.

In regards to the paedophile question, the only humane thing to do in my opinion is to ringfence a remote island somewhere for them, and let them have access to a supply of child sex dolls. Something along the lines of a leper colony where they dont bother the rest of society and can be treated as ill, rather than as criminals.

Tequila
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21 Sep 2012, 2:27 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Wouldn't it be best to see them as human beings first if you hadn't harmed anyone? Is it their fault that they have feelings towards children?

AngelRho
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21 Sep 2012, 2:27 pm

LKL wrote:

back to the gays: what does it matter if it's voluntary or not? There's nothing wrong with two consenting adults having a responsible and respectful sexual relationship, regardless of their motives.

What if the behavior is harmful to the participants? We already do this with other kinds of behaviors that is generally not seen as harmful to others.

Case in point: My wife while she was still in college was seeing a therapist in dealing with some PTSD issues left over from a previous long relationship with an abusive boyfriend. Her counselor suggested visiting another counselor at the hospital--I forget the exact pretext and the details, but my wife agreed upon which she submitted to a questionnaire. Some of the questions were things like had she ever considered hurting herself or committing suicide. Well, yes, she had THOUGHT about hurting herself, but so what? So that's how she answered.

On the basis of that answer, they had her committed. And that was just her as a single individual, based how she reportedly felt at one point in time. That was enough for her to be considered a danger.

Suppose that there was evidence that homosexual behavior is riskier than heterosexual behavior and that the associated risks, especially psychiatric risks (increased incidence of suicide or suicidal thoughts, depression, etc.) that are NOT linked to societal, cultural/political, or familial pressures. Would participating in homosexual sex not be a danger for the participants, so-called "consenting adults," and should not enticing someone to engage in those behaviors be criminalized or at the very least require some kind of interventional therapy?

Tequila
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21 Sep 2012, 2:29 pm

AngelRho wrote:

Some of the questions were things like had she ever considered hurting herself or committing suicide. Well, yes, she had THOUGHT about hurting herself, but so what? So that's how she answered.

On the basis of that answer, they had her committed. And that was just her as a single individual, based how she reportedly felt at one point in time. That was enough for her to be considered a danger.

That's the problem with tick-box questionnaires. They're so inflexible and unjust, and often give completely the wrong impression.

mds_02
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21 Sep 2012, 2:31 pm

LKL wrote:

back to the gays: what does it matter if it's voluntary or not? There's nothing wrong with two consenting adults having a responsible and respectful sexual relationship, regardless of their motives.

This is my usual response to the question of whether or not it is a choice.

What does it matter?

The only reason it would matter would be if one has already accepted the premise that it is inferior to heterosexuality.

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21 Sep 2012, 2:53 pm

They might not choose the way that they are, but that's not the point. We throw rapists in prison (if we catch them), regardless of why. The reason that gay not being a choice is an issue is not because that makes it somehow better or worse, but because some people use the idea that it is a choice as a way to make straight people feel better about not choosing to be gay, and letting them set up gay people as a monster that they simply never will be, and as such can be hated with impunity.

thomas81
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21 Sep 2012, 2:55 pm

Tequila wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Wouldn't it be best to see them as human beings first if you hadn't harmed anyone? Is it their fault that they have feelings towards children?

Its not their fault i agree, but at the same time children deserve a childhood of innocence. I don't think paedophiles should be pre-emptively treated as criminals which is why I think all solutions short of prison or continuing to leave them in the community where they are a risk to children should be considered. All things considered i think to spend the remainder of their days in a sort of 'paedo-colony' is more in their interests than a custody in a building full of short fused thugs where they are likely to incur harrassment, violence or even murder from their immediates.

Anyway, If they can have an exotic island somewhere, their lives may even be idyllic in comparison to those left in the chilly northern hemisphere.

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21 Sep 2012, 3:00 pm

thomas81 wrote:

So you'd basically banish people, like the Nazis wanted to do with the Jews - stick 'em on Madagascar and leave them to it.

Doesn't sound quite so attractive now, does it?

Anyway, who polices these paedophiles? What if there are violent paedophiles on these islands? How would you feed them? In practice, you're still ghettoising and treating as Üntermenschen people who have actually done nothing wrong.

OliveOilMom
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21 Sep 2012, 3:04 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Tequila wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Wouldn't it be best to see them as human beings first if you hadn't harmed anyone? Is it their fault that they have feelings towards children?

I'm not in any way trying to defend pedophiles. Anybody who hurts a child deserves what they get in prison. That being said, I wouldn't think that everyone who has that particular "fetish" (I hate to use that word for that particular thing, but I don't know what else to use) actually acts on it. There is actually a subgroup of the BDSM community who has a "snuff" fetish. Some people actually get off on reading about or imagining people being killed during sex, or imagining themselves being killed during sex, but it's really rare that people act on that. I would imagine that there are some people who are pedophiles who know it's wrong and wouldn't ever act on it and probably keep away from kids because of that very fact. Too bad they all aren't like that.

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Tequila
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21 Sep 2012, 3:06 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:

I would imagine that there are some people who are pedophiles who know it's wrong and wouldn't ever act on it and probably keep away from kids because of that very fact. Too bad they all aren't like that.

Do you not think that paedophiles might come under suspicion precisely because they try to stay away from children as much as possible?

There are more than a few necrophiles out there - men and women.

thomas81
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21 Sep 2012, 3:08 pm

Tequila wrote:

So you'd basically banish people, like the Nazis wanted to do with the Jews - stick 'em on Madagascar and leave them to it.

Thats hardly analogous and you know fine well. I expected better. The jews as a group, were neither an inherent threat to adult or child alike.

Coming from someone with a union jack avatar, perhaps you shouldnt crow so perniciously. Remember the UK tried to send its criminal populace to Australia, not for treatment or sanctuary, but to toil in workhouses and chain gangs.

Tequila wrote:

Doesn't sound quite so attractive now, does it?

Depends how it was run.

If the choice was to live on a tropical island where my needs were catered for, or a damp UK estate where I was the subject of loathing and suspicion by everyone around me I know what i'd go for. Really as long as it was done properly, its a win win situation.

Tequila wrote:

Anyway, who polices these paedophiles? What if there are violent paedophiles on these islands? How would you feed them? In practice, you're still ghettoising and treating as Üntermenschen people who have actually done nothing wrong.

I think it could be done through several ways. Some sort of amnesty could be set up for those that come forward. It would also offer a non reprimandory alternative to deal with people who have been apprehended for downloading child porn. Perhaps even a cash incentive could be offered for amnesty participants.

I dont believe that it should be inherently compulsory though, If one would prefer prison they should have that option.

I see it as much more of a carrot rather than stick solution, in spite of how you portray it.

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