America - Love It or Leave It.

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Fnord
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10 Oct 2012, 6:43 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Fnord wrote:

", especially when American armed forces came to your country's rescue and liberated you or your ancestors from the brutality of some psychopathic dictator. "

You know its remarkably coincidental that this 'liberation' you speak of only seems to manifest in countries that produce oil.

France, Germany, and Japan have oil?

thomas81 wrote:

I don't live in America, and the sort of self gratifying pompous demands from Americans to 'love it or leave it' makes me want to live there even less...

Suit yourself!

thomas81 wrote:

Ironically enough, IIRC it was one of the American founding fathers who said "to criticise one's government when they are wrong is the single greatest act of patriotism one can show"...or words to that effect.

"The greatest patriotism is to tell your country when it is behaving dishonorably, foolishly, viciously." -- Julian Barnes, in Flaubert's Parrot

Since when is it dishonorable, foolish, or vicious to not listen to complaints from people whose only complaint is that their country has not done enough for them, when those same people have done nothing for their country?

thomas81 wrote:

FYI: America isn't all that anyway. The far east is the place to be, and even more so in the coming decades as the asian economic tiger continues to growl.

There was another, nearer economic "Tiger" in recent years. What ever happened to them, I wonder?

Fnord
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10 Oct 2012, 6:46 pm

YippySkippy wrote:

Quote:

But at least some of us have earned the right to complain, instead of just having it handed to us.

That just means you paid for something that's free. :wink:

No, that means that giving something away as a handout to those who didn't earn it only makes it a consolation prize -- like when the losers of a competition are still invited to the victory banquet.

MagicToenail
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10 Oct 2012, 6:47 pm

"My country, right or wrong is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying My mother, drunk or sober. "-GK Chesterson, who was actually a pretty conservative Catholic.
Both left and right are "guilty" of speaking ill about America.

Hopper
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10 Oct 2012, 7:23 pm

So you have to join the armed forces in order to be able to voice your disatisfaction with the status quo?

And whilst there are doubtless lazy people, there's a lot of people who've found themselves unwillingly out of a job, with no new job available. That is, there's a bit of an economic problem at the moment. Whilst people have argued about how so and what to do, I'd be surprised if anyone has seriously considered that it was an outbreak of mass laziness.

Lord_Gareth
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10 Oct 2012, 7:31 pm

Fnord wrote:

YippySkippy wrote:

Quote:

But at least some of us have earned the right to complain, instead of just having it handed to us.

That just means you paid for something that's free. :wink:

No, that means that giving something away as a handout to those who didn't earn it only makes it a consolation prize -- like when the losers of a competition are still invited to the victory banquet.

No thoughts on my earlier statement that discouraging complaining essentially ENCOURAGES armed revolution of the kind that would kill even more troops?

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Kurgan
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10 Oct 2012, 7:41 pm

Fnord wrote:

If you hate America, then please leave. You're not doing any of the rest of us any favors by staying, especially those of us who were (and still are) willing to die to protect your right to whine and complain that America is not good enough for you because you have to get up off of your lazy butts and earn a living.

If you've already left, then stay out. We don't need you here, either. We have enough problems without having to show hospitality to a bunch of self-righteous bigots who have never shown any gratitude, especially when American armed forces came to your country's rescue and liberated you or your ancestors from the brutality of some psychopathic dictator.

The US liberated Chile when the CIA helped Augusto Pinochet overthrow a democratically elected government?

Most of the countries that actually became free after the previous government was overthrown (eg. Romania) became so because of the people of that country. The dictator the US placed on the "throne" in Afghanistan is a f*cking as*hole and the war itself was a grade A failure. Almost ten years were spent, thousands of lives were lost and more than a trillion dollars were spent trying to kill one man out of revenge.

My country was liberated from a nazi backed dictator because of the UK and the USSR.

I have nothing against the American people (80% are nice enough), but I'd gladly give any cocky nationalists from any country the one finger salute.

The people who criticize the US government may very well love their country, just not the laws that the country is ruled by. The land belongs to the people and not the politicians, thus, every American is allowed to live there and criticize whatever he wants to.

AspieRogue

10 Oct 2012, 8:13 pm

Fnord wrote:

AspieRogue wrote:

It's called the 1st amendment and if you enlist then you are agreeing you will DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY. That being said, people do have a right to whine and complain to their hearts content.

Oh, I have no complaint against the right to complain; it's when those complaints come from people who have never served their country, and who somehow expect their country to simply hand them what they want, simply because they want it.

Of course, there are those who -- for some actual disability -- simply are unable to make do for themselves. These people do deserve some basic care ... but no special privileges, in my opinion. In any case, if you're receiving some form of governmental entitlement, then you have no reason to complain, even though you still have the right to complain.

What is sadly ironic is that those who actually DO enlist in the armed forces and serve in wartime where they see actual combat(particularly the Army and the Marine Corps)are the ones who are not given anything by their country even when they desperately need help. 2/3 of homeless Americans are veterans. WTF is wrong with Uncle Sam and the rest of the country for allowing them to be treated this way?! !

YippySkippy
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10 Oct 2012, 8:39 pm

Quote:

No, that means that giving something away as a handout to those who didn't earn it only makes it a consolation prize -- like when the losers of a competition are still invited to the victory banquet.

To be a loser, one must compete.

Fnord
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10 Oct 2012, 8:59 pm

Hopper wrote:

So you have to join the armed forces in order to be able to voice your disatisfaction with the status quo?

Great idea!

Hopper wrote:

And whilst there are doubtless lazy people, there's a lot of people who've found themselves unwillingly out of a job, with no new job available. That is, there's a bit of an economic problem at the moment. Whilst people have argued about how so and what to do, I'd be surprised if anyone has seriously considered that it was an outbreak of mass laziness.

People that have been forced out of work have my sympathy -- I've been there.

People that won't even apply for work because they think that the job should just be given to them ... don't.

Fnord
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10 Oct 2012, 9:01 pm

AspieRogue wrote:

Fnord wrote:

AspieRogue wrote:

Oh, I have no complaint against the right to complain; it's when those complaints come from people who have never served their country, and who somehow expect their country to simply hand them what they want, simply because they want it. Of course, there are those who -- for some actual disability -- simply are unable to make do for themselves. These people do deserve some basic care ... but no special privileges, in my opinion. In any case, if you're receiving some form of governmental entitlement, then you have no reason to complain, even though you still have the right to complain.

It's a shame that no one in Washington recognized that I was in a combat zone in Somalia, because I was officially there on a relief mission.

But that's life...

MDD123
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10 Oct 2012, 9:02 pm

I have two basic complaints about America:

1. Special interest groups have way too much pull in washington.

2. Worship of the national anthem, pledge of alegience, and the flag keep getting confused with actual patriotism.

Fnord
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10 Oct 2012, 9:25 pm

MDD123 wrote:

These aren't complaints; they're a way of life!

ArrantPariah
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10 Oct 2012, 9:28 pm

AspieRogue wrote:

Fnord at leasts grants these people the luxury of complaining.

enrico_dandolo
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10 Oct 2012, 10:40 pm

Fnord wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Fnord wrote:

", especially when American armed forces came to your country's rescue and liberated you or your ancestors from the brutality of some psychopathic dictator. "

You know its remarkably coincidental that this 'liberation' you speak of only seems to manifest in countries that produce oil.

France, Germany, and Japan have oil?

As I remember it, all these countries were rather satisfied before being "freed". France was under a collaboration government under prominent pre-war personnalities -- the Germans were a nuisance, surely, but not enough to create a strong reaction, aside from those who were already in opposition (like the PCF) and those who would rather have the power for themselves (like self-proclaimed President De Gaulle). Germany was under the government it had chosen. I know less about Japan, but the government was certainly doing fairly well until the Americans started firebombing it. "Freeing" works better in the case of Italy, which had overthrown Mussolini and was occupied by German troops -- yet, it is seen as having been defeated. Otherwise, I can grant the Benelux countries, but the war was won by the Soviet Union all the same. (Obviously, I simplified a bit, but still.)

Most American wars did nothing to help other countries: imperialistic wars against Mexico and Spain, various military interventions in Central and Southern America (and elsewhere, during the Cold War), sustaining a violent dictatorship in South Viet Nam, ethnic cleansing against the Indians, and the list goes on.

Tensu
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10 Oct 2012, 11:02 pm

enrico_dandolo wrote:

but the war was won by the Soviet Union all the same.

Say you were playing a multiplayer video game with some friends and were on the last boss. You all agreed to, by some tech, bring the boss down to 1hp and then all hit him at once, to share the glory. But one of your friends is a d*** and breaks the plan and delivers the final blow before anyone else can so he can brag about how he beat the boss all on his own.

That's pretty much what the soviet union did in WWII.

visagrunt
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11 Oct 2012, 8:07 am

Fnord wrote:

Well, there you go! But at least some of us have earned the right to complain, instead of just having it handed to us.

This is where I disagree with you.

Rights are inherent and universal. You don't earn the right to free expression--it is inherent in every person in the a society in which free expression is guaranteed.

Those who have served their countries do not have a superior right to free expression. I laud Forces' members for their willingness to put themselves in harm's way--but I do not believe that their service imbues them with any superior standing.

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