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Did existence create itself?

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Kurgan
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14 Nov 2012, 4:06 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Something cannot come from nothing. Material has limitations, and does not span from everlasting to everlasting. If there was a pre big bang to have sparked the big bang, that pre big bang still suffers the same questions as the original big bang.


The Big Bang didn't come from nothing. If you go to time 0, our best approximation would be a singularity universe with zero volume and infinite density, but we know extremely little about the Big Bang before one Planck time. The Big Bang is not a theory that explains how the universe was created, but how it's expanding and the consequences of this expansion.


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The only way you get something from nothing is if its creator or creating force is not bounded to or forced to live within the confines and limitations of naturalism.


Omnipotence would allow a God to be above physical laws and time.

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If that creator something or causer that sparked or guided the big bang is immaterial, and unnatural/supernatural, then we cannot assess IT with the laws that govern nature or the material world, and certainly not with natural modes of measurement. We can only observe the science behind the creation or the created. That is it.


True enough.




I agree.

I guess since we know nothing of what came before this singular universe, or how this universe came about at all, the question, absent a supernatural force, is where did this singular universe come from, or why it exists. How can we construct a testable proof for it. What made it so... wherein the construction of this singular universe could have just read like a lifeless ream of very precise and complex equations on endless sheets of paper, what put the fire behind the equations to use Hawkings own question, and made them a physical reality. What compels a universe into existence.

A pre big bang is what has been entertained, one that maybe sort of contracted or inflated. Hawkings entertains a wick transformation but I know too little of that or the numbering system that would have to be manipulated to comment on it. Our universe may also be be a side-reaction of other universes, we don't know.


In a singularity with infinite density and no volume, time as we know it freezes and the four forces are fused into one. Even if there "globally" speaking (for a lack of a better word) was something "before" the Big Bang, it would leave no evidence or traces for us to find and it would be a different timeline; to us, there would be no before regardless if there ever was a previous universe. Therefore, we will never know for sure what caused the Big Bang or if there are other universes.

We're bound to know more about the physical laws if we study the black holes more, though. There's a singularity at the center of every black hole. :)



ruveyn
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14 Nov 2012, 4:14 pm

Who made god? It is turtles all the way down.

ruveyn



abacacus
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14 Nov 2012, 4:16 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Who made god? It is turtles all the way down.

ruveyn


Yep. No matter what way you look at it, at some point something came from nothing.


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Kurgan
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14 Nov 2012, 4:23 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Who made god? It is turtles all the way down.

ruveyn


Omnipotence would allow one to be above the laws of physics. St. Augustine described time as a part of the creation as early as 1,600 years ago.



Kurgan
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14 Nov 2012, 4:25 pm

abacacus wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Who made god? It is turtles all the way down.

ruveyn


Yep. No matter what way you look at it, at some point something came from nothing.


If everything stems from a singularity, then there never was a time of absolute void. The Big Bang didn't happen short,y after time began; it happened exactly when time began. There never was a before or an empty space where there could be one hundred percent nothing.



abacacus
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14 Nov 2012, 4:25 pm

Kurgan wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Who made god? It is turtles all the way down.

ruveyn


Omnipotence would allow one to be above the laws of physics. St. Augustine described time as a part of the creation as early as 1,600 years ago.


And this omnipotence came into being how? Of course, you could always argue that at some point in the future either us or some as yet unknown extraterrestrial race created it, but that's a real toughie to make convincing.


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robo37
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14 Nov 2012, 4:47 pm

I just think the universe started out with a certain amount of matter and energy when time began, as well as a certain amount of empty space for exansion, and then it quickly expanded due the all the mass being packed so close to each other (mass doesn't like that).

The mass and energy didn't come from anywhere IMO, it was there at the start of time. I mean if you look at it you're either going to be full of nothing, something or a mixture of both, and I can't see any reason why one should scenario should prevail over the others unless it was a question of balance, in which case, as the portions of substance over space seem to be at just the right balance to leave the universe running smoothly, so if the laws of physics wanted balance (which they quite often do) that would be it's best choice.